Poll: Flags or Downvotes?
Hello Steemians, we want to hear your thoughts on whether we should replace "flags" with "downvotes" on steemit.com, which is why we’d like you to participate in this poll. Specifically we will be changing the icon and some of the verbiage that users see when they click on the icon. This idea has been brought up in the past by community members through various channels. You can view some of that discussion here: Change flag to downvote #2258.
TL;DR
Do you think flags should be changed to downvotes? Leave a comment to this post saying “Yes” if you would like flags changed to downvotes, or leave a comment saying “No” if you would not like flags to be changed to downvotes.
Why?
There are two reasons why we would support this change. First, a “downvote” is more accurate as that is what the action is called on the blockchain level. The reason why Steem has downvotes is to enable the Steem user base to self-regulate and police the distribution of tokens from the rewards pool. If Steem only had upvotes, that would enable people to exploit the rewards pool while leaving other users without the ability to counter that behavior.
Downvotes are a critical function from a game theoretical perspective. Rendering a downvote is technically just a user expressing their opinion that a post is overvalued, but a flag connotes a negative moral or legal judgment about the content. That creates a negative user experience and engenders confusion in the mind of the user with respect to how the protocol functions on a technical level.
The Role of Steemit.com
We believe that part of steemit.com’s function within the ecosystem is to be the most accurate visual representation of the Steem blockchain. Steem can be used to power an infinite variety of applications, but it is for other developers to explore those opportunities. It is our responsibility at Steemit to ensure that users and developers who are new to the ecosystem are introduced to the blockchain in a way that maximizes the odds that they will be able to rapidly acquire a deep understanding of the protocol so that they can come up with new and innovative uses of it.
Communities
The second reason why we would like to experiment with downvotes is because the Communities specification also has a flag component that is effectively identical to the more typical use of that element in other social media applications. Thanks to flexibility of Soft Consensus, flags in Hivemind can be used to satisfy whatever subjective standards a community desires to enforce, freeing downvotes to serve the specific application for which they were intended: regulating the rewards pool.
Dialogue Suggestions
For now, we only plan to replace the flag icon with a downvote icon as a test. We are not making substantial changes to the text used in the dialogue box that appears when you click on the Flag icon, so we would love to read any suggestions you might have for changes to that text in the comments section below.
We want steemit.com to be a great experience for you all, so let us know what you think by completing the poll below.
The Poll
Do you think flags should be changed to downvotes? Leave a comment saying “Yes” if you would like flags changed to downvotes, or leave a comment saying “No” if you would not like flags to be changed to downvotes.
The Steemit Team
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes.
Yes
Yes
Yes , but it should not decrease the value gained by blog. It should be like indicators that indicates people are liking this blog or not
It would be nice to have those indicators too, and it would be interesting to see a page ordered by 'likes'.
The funny thing is, likes can be bought, while flags are usually genuine whether the poster deserved it or not.
There isn't much that can't be bought.
Still, I'd like to see what content would rise to the top without using 'money' to order it.
Well, promotional services such as @promotedpost, and its similar cousins, will add several hundred "likes" for 1 Steem.
Just look at their Resteems and you will get exactly what you envision.
Fair point, sigh.
OR we could also remove the rewards too, just leave the upvotes be like indicators that indicate people are liking this blog or not.
You are dreaming, is not gonna happen in 5 years, not with these guys running the show.
All they are interested in is keeping Steemit as meaningless as possible. And they are doing a very good job at it.
Yes.
It's up to you.
Yes
Yes
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes.
yes
Yes
Yes, Agreed.
Yes.
But only because of the consistency in wording. Leave the moral discussion to damn leftists.
No.
A down vote has a much much more "... negative moral or legal judgment about the content." than a flag. A flag is simply a means to indicate there may be issues with a post. A Down vote is a definite moral judgement made by an individual about a post worthiness.
I've heard more that flags seem more threatening than downvotes.
Downvotes are just pointing out that someone doesn't like the post of yours.
Flagging can be seen as some kind of marking the content as something harmful.
Yes
.
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes, although I think there are other more important features to implement on the steemit.com website than changing an icon or some terminology.
BTW, do you know about dpoll? Why not use it?
Many questioned the use of dpoll in the community election, and stated it should have been just done through comments. I think it’s one of those “you can’t please everyone” situations.
Possibly they aren’t looking for “consensus” but rather feedback?
feedback is also alright :-) Here is a good example from @stateofthedapps.
The most important thing that has to be taken care of, is to make Steemit a more friendly place to come to and to understand, because now those in power as well as the user interface are extremely user hostile. You have to be a diehard poster/commenter now, to even stand it a few weeks here as things are now.
"The most important thing that has to be taken care of, is to make Steemit a more friendly place to come to and to understand"
Whoa, hahaha, yeah right! Wouldn't that be nice?
No truer words have been spoken, you have to had already earned your blogging battle scars to stay entrenched on this site. My only concerns are will down votes cancel out a up vote?...if they do then what do you do if someone decides they don't like you and stalks your comments/post just to down vote them for no other reason. Can/will down votes be able to be weighted according to SP...meaning someone with more power can just wipe out your total up votes?...if so nothing really changes, people can still be retaliatory out of spite instead of out of concern for the content produced and they will still be able to run over to your blog and retaliate some more. Though some probably think people don't think about that but they do. I did exactly that last week when I wrote a post and I didn't know how it'd be taken so I waited two more days for another post to clear that had earned a few pennies before posting the current post.
This place could literally be a blast if people didn't fear, say, getting in on a Bernie knock out drag out, it's be great, fun, fun, fun....but the fear factor exist of being squashed so people don't do it. Whatever is decided the fear of striking at profit (up votes, post rewards) has to be eliminated, the only time people should be losing rewards here would be out of abuse of the platform/reward pool.
Just to give people a good idea of the kind of fear that exist on this site the person behind the drama token offered twenty steam for the best article that could start some drama....and literally got crickets for a response, I think one person wrote something and even that was questionable if it was even dramatic.
The fear factor, the totalitarianism has to cease to exist and open debate left to flourish, once you establish that the site will flourish.
So Yes I am in if the only thing left hurting is one's feelings you don't agree with them.
Hey, thanks for mentioning dPoll.
dPoll is a solution to get that kind of feedbacks, but not the perfect solution. In order to create a poll at dPoll right now, you need to use the Steemconnect. (which requires Active key sent to Steemconnect at first login.)
I can understand having sensitive accounts (like @steemitblog) makes the dPoll a no-go at the moment.
Steemconnect related concerns raised multiple times before. We're trying to address the situation by making SC as an optional authentication method. Voting via Keychain/3rd party transactions was the first step and already deployed a couple of weeks ago.
This exactly right. Dpoll and SteemConnect are both awesome, but we have to be extra careful. Thanks for understanding!
This is something I fully understand too. Looking forward to see dPoll being fully Keychain compatible.
Because an interface could simply parse the comments and display the result based on SP owned
Yes
Posted using Partiko Android
didn't read
why do you give a shit now
anyways, shalom
Because the ship is sinking.
Yes
Yes
Yes.
Hello bro, uh........
maybe we can chose”Dislike”
How do you think?😘
Nope, you want to make Steemit a succesful platform. That is the wrong mindset. It should be a small echochamber, a micro-bubble for pc poco nerds.
What's "pc poco"?
pc is shorthand for personal computer = nerds but also for poco = politically correct
No
The flag distinguishes Steemit from other social networks. On other social networks, "dislikes" by merely expressing displeasure. But the "Flag" of the Steemit is much more. "Flag" is an educational element for the new Steemians.
Posted using Partiko iOS
Yeah, as in it's my way or the highway. You must like reading repetitive comments of agreement all day.
Yes
Yes, and to take it a step further you need to think about the visual communication of having the flag/downvote in a different place than the upvote button.
This communicates that these actions aren't related and it's inconsistent with every other social platform that has downvotes.
So something like this
This!
The actions aren't related enough to be given equivalent icons in the same spot, though.
Upvotes are used to show agreement with comments and posts. Downvotes are to identify abuse of the system or users. There's a reason they aren't next to each other, and mirror images of each other.
This misunderstanding actually proves my point. What you just said is what their design communicates, but no, they ARE opposite actions, and are NOT meant to show abuse. That's the whole reason this is being brought up.
No, you're re-writing history. That's not true at all.
Flags are to show abuse of the blockchain/website/users. Now they're being morphed into "disagree" or "I feel this post/comment is overvalued".
The term flag is indeed as you defined it, which is why this conversation has been a recurring one in the community, but the technical application on Steem of a flag is LITERALLY the opposite of an upvote. As in it, consumes voting power, and removes a stake weighted amount of Steem, based on voting weight and power.
Typically a flag is a tool to alert site moderators of some sort of abuse so that they can take action. This functionality doesn't exist on Steem as there are no site moderators, and no person has the power to take any action against another user other than a downvote. This change would at least clear up this confusion.
I still doubt people will use them as this is a fundamentally different system, and the things that work on centralized, no money involved systems, just won't work the same here, but it at least make things clearer.
And here I was thinking that flags in Steem just meant: "I hate you."
Great feedback!
I think that you have more important things to do on Steem, instead of dealing with such trivia at this moment.
P.S. Both, flags and downvotes are needed
Both? Really? Ironically, you make this issue seem less trivial with this comment.
The censorship that flagging allows is destroying this platform, I'd call that pretty crucial not trivial.
....I don't know exactly where your going with that as in what defines censorship differently here there other blog sites....the censorship here isn't that your post won't show up or the inconvenience that people will have to click on "show items" to see a post, censorship here is a fear element not a physical one but a mental one.
Yes
Posted using Partiko iOS
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes.
If your are going to change the culture then down votes can't be punitive. It's as plain and simple as that. Nothing changes without freedom of speech, the ship will continue to sink if down votes can be used like flagging.
Freedom of speech is alive and well.. you seem to not have a full understanding of how blockchains work or why downvotes are needed in a reward society.
Sure they are abused, which is unfortunate .. but they are needed.
The way it's set up now does't work out well so that argument fails you. Come back when you have an excuse that will actually work.
Works great actually, no excuse needed.
You are the one over there at corporate, you are the one going down with the ship, you don't see me baling water. Narcissism seems to run deep in the current over there, it's been the fact you'd rather paint the color of the ship then put any positive regard into what people are saying as to why this site is losing momentum.
That’s just comical. Try again 😂
Well of course it is, narcissist generally don't view themselves as such.
Hey dear, I don’t work for corporate and have put in more hours here (with no pay) then I can count to help this place.
I know when someone doesn’t agree with you, the easiest thing to do is say there must be a conspiracy or that they somehow are benefiting from the issues.. or just trying to cover them up. Which is absurd, and therefore comical.
You just are short sighted and don’t understand blockchain or even what censorship is. So, I’ll go back to what I said... there is a purpose for downvotes.. if you don’t get that, maybe you should go research to find out why.
Otherwise you are just trying to sink the ship by thinking everyone should be rewarded all this “free” money all the time, no matter if the community likes the content or not.. and no mechanism to counter it, which means you also don’t understand economics.
So I’ll leave it at that. Because based on your excessive and uneducated comments all over this post, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Have a good one.
First off I based the "you being corporate" off that first voting proposal stuff they did where it stated you had been brought in to work with corporate. Secondly, and it's been pointed out, again back then, you just happen to pop out of the blue somewhere and had one thing posted to your blog so I am taking it you have no blogging experience and wouldn't know what makes a successful blogging platform it it hit you in the face. I've been blogging for four, five years now and have served as moderator on some of the top news sites for one major platform. I am sorry I have to point out to you that this site sucks...it doesn't suck for lack of good content, excellent commentary, opinion pieces it sucks because people fear speaking their minds on a subject without getting flagged. I am fully aware when it comes to money there has to be a way to control those who'd cheat but controlling those who would cheat and free speech are two different things. Not only can they get mad and flag you on their post but they can run over and flag everything unrelated to it...and that's why people walk around on here saying in various ways: nice post, I agree with you, excellent write up, it mundane and boring.
If you want to get to the crust of it, I am just being honest, but people with high sp and reputations flag people who do the exact same thing they do, they post a meme and make money off it but someone with low sp tries that and it's flag city, so you can't say it's not a two faced system that benefits one group over another and you don't expect those people to feel offended? You can't run a site where there's one set of rules for one group and another set of rules for another, it's never going to end up well.
Overall I see this as just a ploy that will enable more eyes to help fight the supposed abuse of a meme poster while those same low sp people won't dare downvote a high sp holder for doing the same. Nothing of real essence is going to change.
Believe me the first time I take the time to read a post, maybe even have to put some research into it, write a comment, if someone(s) up vote it then someone comes along and downvotes my rewards away I'll be leaving at that point, I can go blog for free on quite a few sites.
One last thing, I really don't believe you just came out of nowhere and jumped on the bandwagon, there's just no convincing me that even happened.
I’m not sure what you are referring to as me being brought in to work with corporate. If you mean the foundation proposals, I was elected by the community to help organize it.. which pretty much means I worked as the community’s secretary for free for the last few months to help try to improve this place.
As far as my blog having one post.. it clearly says it’s my new blog.. and links to the old one.. where I have been for almost two years. Yeah, I’m not a professional blogger.. as I spend most of my time here curating content (again for free) and trying to help good authors be rewarded, help them find their community and yeah, fight unjust flagging. I know it happens, and usually it can be worked out if each party doesn’t start raging like lunatics.
As far as this site sucking, not sure what that is specifically referring to..we are definitely a work in progress. I guess you mean just the downvotes as you mentioned them specifically. This discussed change is only for how the downvotes/flags will be displayed and has nothing to do with how they will work.. simple as that.
I pretty much speak my mind here, no matter the wallet size and have been flagged plenty for it. Saying people are silenced is not true.. they may have their potential rewards removed and put back into the reward pool (as well as that of the one who flagged them) as well as be “grayed” out.. but they aren’t silenced. And many here will stand up to help those who are unjustly flagged.. the issue is, when most receive a downvote or flag, they rage.. as they feel they are entitled to the payout.. and then they acquire more flags for the ragging.
After awhile, how can the community defend them? There have been many, many cases of someone being unjustly flagged and handling it like an adult, and the situation is resolved.
The issue here is the culture of the downvotes which leads to abuse as well as over reaction. Normalizing the downvotes for what they were intended as well as education and the community pulling together to ensure they are used correctly is the only solution. This UI change as well as further discussion is the way to achieve that.. as well as time and work.
I've seen post raking in hundreds for minimal effort that I can't agree with but I am not going to downvote them or flag them if I could because I see people with large amounts of sp doing the same exact thing. I see people who work really hard putting out some fantastic stuff making a small sum on each post and it really isn't fair to them either but in all due fairness I don't want to get caught up in some battle I am going to lose by confronting the person who flagged them that they just did the exact same thing. It's actually easier to talk to the person whose raging, I've done it before and it worked rather well...but it's a never ending cycle. I don't know what the answer is to be honest.
There's a guy on here who I seen on trending page once and decided to follow. At first it was okay but it basically amounts to the same thing and sometimes it's only two, three paragraphs, once I told him it looked like something he wrote on a napkin after a performance at a bar. He makes hundreds of dollars doing a Daily Affirmations by Stuart Smalley type stuff....I've seen authors on here writing intellectually stimulating stuff of much better caliber then his making less than ten bucks a pop yet months later someone resteemed one of his articles the other day and he's still raking in hundreds, and he has his groupies with their hands out, it ridiculously unfair to the more talented who treat the system fairly but aren't, in my opinion, being rewarded the value they deserve. Everything just seems out of balance.
Downvotes are needed to make sure the ship sinks.
What reasons do you believe they are needed for?
I agree they are needed but only for downvoting stolen content, abusive behaviour to others on the platform and misinformation that could be harmful if people were to believe it.
I downvoted someone who stole my content on here, but I think that's it. I may have done the other two but I don't remember by now.
I don't believe in flagging people due to disagreement etc, but the reasons given above are reasons to downvote / flag. I'm not sure if we will agree on the reasons you feel it is needed or not, since I don't yet know what those reasons are.
Ganging up on someone and downvoting their every post and not giving them a chance to redeem themselves in your eyes for whatever pissed you off though is a shitty thing that people do on here though and I 100% disagree with that. Each post should be an individual post and someone's time on here shouldn't be completely ruined because of a mistake they made. That's shit.
Yes.
Yes.
Remove the dialog altogether for downvotes as they relate to users expressing an opinion about the reward pool. Alternately, replace with a brief explanation about how the reward pool works (upvotes minus downvotes as a measurement of stakeholder consensus) which should appear once for each user.
For 'flags' as a Communities feature, community managers should be able to customize the text.
Great suggestion. The text is incorrect as is....
Yes.
Increasing downvotes is healthy and important for the ecosystem, so much so that I am still a strong proponent of a separate downvote power pool.
I agree with the other comments that downvotes should be more visually similar to upvotes -- it is an important UX decision that will be able to slowly change the culture to be more accepting of downvotes.
The two above changes -- separate downvote power, and equivalent UX design -- would go a long way to better sample both positive and negative feedback on a post and lead to more "fair" rewards.
One consideration would be the continuation of "flag wars" to "downvote wars". I'm not sure the best approach for avoiding this becoming more common (perhaps hiding the list of downvoters from Steemit's UX would help) but with more prevalent downvotes it is likely retaliation will increase. It is a consideration, but the benefits outweigh this concern in my opinion.
Finally, the new communities interface surrounding a new form of "flagging" should be robust. Moderation is very important for social networks, and having robust tools for community leaders to clean their space is a key element for having a good public image and leaving good impressions for newcomers.
"Downvotes are healthy and important for the ecosystem"
They aren't talking about getting rid of them, so arguing for their validity is pointless. You fell for their strawman argument!
The issue at hand is: Is flagging a comment or post exactly the opposite of upvoting it, and should they be considered opposite sides of the same coin by the site and community?
Arguing that flags/downvotes are healthy is pointless. Nobody is saying otherwise. Literally nobody.
"Literally nobody" -- not true, there are many users that argue for an "upvote only" system.
There are also many users who believe that the ratio between upvotes and downvotes should be high (for examples sake, say 90% upvotes 10% downvotes).
I'm not talking at all about their necessity, that's implied, my argument is that the ratio should be increased and more even for a healthier environment (for examples sake, say 75% upvotes, 25% downvotes). This can be achieved in multiple ways, as I explained above, such as removing the social barrier (UX) as well as the technical opportunity cost (downvote power separation).
Literally nobody in this discussion, anyway. Surely there are people who believe almost every possible thing that can be believed. But nobody in this discussion, or here in the post or comments, has that stance. Arguing against it here is silly, and off-topic.
What do you mean by the ratio between upvotes and flags? How could that be enforced, and why would we want to?
I wasn't even talking about it until you brought it up.
The ratio of upvotes to downvotes means that, either per-user or in aggregate of the whole system, how often is an upvote used relative to a downvote. If its 100%, then only upvotes are used. If its 90%, then for every 9 upvotes there is on average 1 downvote. And so on.
My opinion and argument in both of my comments is that the number of downvotes, relative to upvotes, should be higher (i.e. more downvotes) as it creates a more healthy ecosystem.
I never talked about enforcing -- it's about incentives (or lack there-of). I strongly encourage you to re-read my comments.
Long live the n2!
actually there are a few comments here referring to exactly that.. and there always is. As many individuals here don’t understand downvotes and why they are important, which is what anyx was pointing out. 🙂
Doesn't matter much, but downvotes should have their own punishment pool (reward pool). So downvoting doesn't take from your upvote %
What is "TL;DR" and "verbiage"?
too long, didn't read and 'excessively lengthy or technical speech or writing.'
Glad to know that you're asking suggestions from people. I think this is good idea but I would say there are many other important things to do rather than this one.
Posted using Partiko Android
No
Yes.
Yes, Both will be needed for community expansion and moderations.
Posted using Partiko iOS
Flags should be limited and only used for plagiarism, hate speech, etc and have it effect both rep and rewards. Down votes should be something seperate with a seperate vp and only hit rewards in my opinion.
Yes.
To go a bit further, flags and downvotes should be two separate things. Flags should be for abuses/violations of steemit.com rules whereas downvotes should be for disagreement of rewards.
So are you saying that Steemit.com should have moderators and control the content posted on the site?
It already does.
lol, you can say that again, they just are known by other titles.
Eheheeheh! 🙃 😂
It doesn't.
Edit: Well yes it seems to have.
Well, then I guess this happened by accident:
Interesting, it seems something has changed while I haven't been using Steemit anymore.
No, it hasn’t.. Steemit.com is owned by a private company and has to follow rules sometimes. The darkoverloard was doing things that would have put them in legal trouble and they made the decision to remove it from their interface. Others don’t have to as they are not in the same legal jurisdiction and of course nothing is removed from the chain.
They have also removed spam accounts from the interface that can still be viewed elsewhere.
People just like to use this one example to somehow back up their censorship claims.. when all they mean are downvotes, as they have not been removed from the interface, clearly. 🙂
Well it has changed, as for the time I used Steemit nothing like this had happened and as far as I know, nobody even assumed something like this would have happened.
Steem the blockchain is censorship resistant, but this still changes things.
Well yes, Steemit.com is a private website. Just like they took the blog down of that hacker group a few months back. Content stays on the blockchain but steemit.com is a for profit website and the sooner it is run like one the sooner we all benefit.
Communities should have moderators yes and there should be a way to reward community members for their contributions to that community. What we have now is a giant mess of nothing. There is no value here for other people to consume. Zero.
Communities and their moderators will solve this issue though, Steemit Inc should not be set to moderate the interface too much unless it has to do with drastic things as you mentioned.
Communities can censor what they like to improve their users experience. Having multiple communities with multiple moderators all with different styles of moderation will help balance it all. Communities will be a game changer for sure 🙂
Agreed. But, where are they?
Hivemind ✅ - done
MIRA - Almost done
Then communities.
Hivemind allows more changes to the font end to be done without a fork.. MIRA will lower the costs of running a full node which will be needed to run dApps. Communities are next on their roadmap I’ve seen.. nothing happens as quick as we want here and development was stalled for a bit there, but it seems to be back on track. Hopefully it continues 🙂
Well that is good to know, actually. Have you spoken to Ned recently?
I’m not in contact with Ned often, but spoke to him a week or so ago about the foundation and all is well. Eli and Andrarchy are my main contacts for that now, and speak to them often. The Steemit devs can be seen on the Steemit blog posts answering questions as well. I think they are actively trying to communicate more openly and I hope it continues.
What is Eli doing btw? She's been here for months now but we haven't seen much in the way of steemit.com being improved upon? Do they every plan to spend any money advertising it?
And what do you mean by, "all is well"? Is Ned still involved with steem at all, IE does he still see a future with it? There are rumors that he cashed his steem and basically has moved on...
yes
Yes
I voted earlier, but is this really the most important thing right now? We haven't heard much from you guys for two weeks and we are now just talking about changing verbage??? Please tell me there is more...
There is an upcoming HF (to integrate the worker proposal system/Steem DAO). I believe the idea is to also add in these small “fixes” as well.
Some changes take time and aren’t ready to implement.. but small things that can be added to this HF with low effort but solve issues, seems like a good thing to me.
I’m actually a bit excited by the communities mention. They’re discussing this partly in the context of making room for a true (moderation style) flag implementation in the communities toolset, so I hope that signals forward momentum there!
That is a good point if that is where this is going. I just fear (if it actually is going that way) it will take years to implement, like everything else on here has.
yes
I don't see what the difference is between a flag and a downvote, except for the name change. If the witnesses we all know don't like the content they didn't like before they will just keep on downvoting those posters into oblivion.
In my view Steemit does not need flags or downvotes, but it needs moderators and not some self proclamed bad cops/cowboy sherriffs that go rogue with their power abuse.
Flagging should be something very exceptional. And should be directed to moderators, preferably per category. That would also mean when you make post, this post has to be placed in a "category" like on internet fora, what should also facilitate navigating and searching stuff on Steemit. The #tag system obviously doens't work and only turns Steemit into a junkyard of randomness where it's almost impossible to find anything meaningful.
What Steemit users want to see though is:
and the "meritocracy" nonsense whereby super heavy weights can now at will upvote or downvote should be replaced by flat reward system.
With moderators per category, there would also no longer be an excuse for allowing these super aggressive and ennoying harrasment bots like cheetah, badcontent etc. that are operated by rogue witnesses.
If you want to remove the effect of SP on rewards and you want moderators on the site, I'm not sure if you even are on the right site.
Have you tried out social medias like Facebook? There you can see at least how many people likes your post, no special rewards for rich users and they have moderators too.
I could recommend that.
I am here because I can see the immensily huge potential this platform has. 1 STEEM could easily be worth 100 times more than it is now if the people running the show here would only just try for 1%. But obviously all they do results in chasing people away from this platform and driving the price of STEEM from 150000 Satoshi when it launched, to a meager 6500 Satoshi as I am writing this now. Of course some people LOVE the way Steemit is doing now. Who? Usually they say "Follow the Money" if you want to know those you're not allowed to criticize.
Well I see part of the potential being a working reward system, which however seems to be too complicated for many people as they're longing after a flat reward system. It would probably be a flat zero then.
Also I do not really see how moderators would help the platform. At that point we'd really see the "you're not allowed to criticize"-phenomenon you seem to be worried about. Of course now high SP users can flag posts/users to below zero rewards etc. but moderators would have stronger power than that and I see no point in it.
There shouldn't be special rewards for rich users though.
Steem Power is a great thing if it couldn't be bought as it meant people who made more content that was liked by the community and / or put more time into curation are the ones with the most power to judge other content etc so it shows a proof of time spent and proof of quality. Proving that you have money helps Steemit financially but it doesn't show that you are someone who should have power on this website.
Facebook is a shit social media site, with a worse community than this and it doesn't allow earning money and you're being pretty condescending to pagandance to suggest that they should go there just because they don't like the website having this particular aspect. Steemit is much closer socially to Reddit than Facebook anyway. The way people interact and are keen to have a discussion is much more common of Steemit and Reddit than Facebook. Facebook is only good for people you know in real life. Interactions with strangers on there are much shittier than on here or Reddit.
I don't know what the solution is to the fact that people can essentially buy their way to the top (which is shit) because at the same time that is part of the funding of the site, but it is one of the downsides of how Steemit works. I don't think making it a flat reward system is the solution either, but the difference due to SP could be less OP at least. All social media and all platforms that have monetisation aspects have pros and cons. YouTube for example has more faults than Steemit, but one of its pros over Steemit is the fact that everyone starts the same and you can't pay your way to a bigger audience and larger amounts of ad revenue. This is a disadvantage of the Steemit platform.
I'm certainly not leaving and I think Steem is one of the better platforms I'm on, but that doesn't change that being a downside of this particular platform. Just like I won't leave YouTube, but it has downsides. I don't see the rich getting richer and this aspect of Steem making it resemble the shitty, real world slightly more as a positive aspect of the platform and I never will, but it is still intrinsically tied into how it works, so it's a negative to accept along with the positives of the platform. I don't quite want what either of you two seem to want, but simply see pros and cons here and you both have some decent points. I also never get up platform's butts either so I won't pretend negatives are positives either (not saying you are, but I won't ever do that).
However Facebook is not close to being a comparable website to Steemit and I think you are being a bit rude and condescending to the other commenter. You should probably cut that out.
Indeed, you should earn respect and not be able to just buy it. I think a vote power cap of 1000 SP max would be beneficial for the platform. Now there is absolutely no balance.
Right its rebranding bullshit. But no, it does not need moderators. Simply introduce unique user identification (as Block.one will do on its Steem 2.0) and then put a treshold on the flaggging mechanism. If x number of users downvoted (relative to a standard) --> than activate flag/reward-pool redistribution, otherwise --> ignore. If number of disagreement is low (e.g. one or two of 50 or 100 users disagreed, then its very likely that the downvote reflects an extreme ideologic opinion which is forced upon us via high steem power /see bernie sanders)).
but anyway doesn´t matter at all...others will do it better, free market.
Yes.
Yes.
Especially newbies seem to have issues understanding what flags currently are. I've seen more than one user thinking it's some kind of "flagged so the moderators will check it"-type of things.
Being a downvote it'll be much simpler to understand.
Yes
The term flag is closer in meaning to "report" while the effect of the action is more like a downvote. Change the words and icons.
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes
Although, I'd really like to have both flags and downvotes. Flag for something inappropriate that should be hidden from Steemit.com and downvotes for posts/comments where I don't agree with the value awarded.
Great feedback! I agree
Thanks! Appreciate the feedback-squared.
Please don't add any functionality that requires more training points.
hey , do you think you'll be able to lure in more suckers soon ? I want out and need someone to purchase this shitcoin at better price so I can break even
hey smidge, it's becoming surreal now :-) I think this post will enter the history books of Social Media :-)
its surreal for sometime now ;-)
Now is a good time to buy this steem shitcoin, smidge. It lays flat on the All Time Low floor gasping for some air. It is now around 6500 Satoshi, just bought a heap of it and then will dump it when it doubles or triples. Easy money :-) And then we can go on trolling here again :-) STEEM has now become so worthless, that if I'd power up, I would become a Steemit "Orca" LOL
if this shitcoin doubles or triples that means other coins will go up at least x10 ....
I cried. This is the most beautiful comment ever written in internet history.
You have received a negative vote.
Darn, you just ruined this opinion free flag free thread....there's was hope and you just took it away.
Oh sorry about that man. lolz But remember if we want opinions we are not to share them and only write them in diaries.. didn't you hear?
You wont believe who "agrees" with the post in the comments. Crack a beer and enjoy having a look :P
https://steemit.com/notentitledtoshit/@berniesanders/you-want-free-speech-go-write-in-a-diary
You have received a negative vote.
Outside of that value coming from abuse of the rewards pool whether you agree or not with what's been written should be limited to commenting your displeasure and a no deduction from rewards down vote. There's a reason they don't let the judge be the jury.
Of course... I personally wouldn't downvote someone because I disagree with their content... I would either comment or ignore the post completely. My position still stands though, the flag should be used for content that shouldn't be seen on Steemit (say something completely plagiarized without sourcing the creator) or a downvote for something I disagree with the value of. If say, a simple low-effort selfie was upvoted to $1000.
I agree with your assessment, I am completely the same way. I either ignore it, decide to leave a comment of disagreement or move on. The problem with the current system is it leaves those with power the absolute right to abuse the platform...I've just come to accept that's the way it is since nothing ever gets done about it. Funny thing is though is that it's usually those with power abusing the platform who will flag someone with less power for doing the exact same thing. (lol) I highly doubt my time spent here will change anything, nor most of those who've also made comments, these things never seem to equate to any meaningful change, just like politics, the power is in the hands of a few and those people will not vote against or change things against their own self interest....even if in the end the end result will be worse.
The best way I'd say, if I had to escape this mess, would be to put a heavier coat of lipstick on the pig, in other words use the flag system for people to flag for abuse that will bring down Steem Cleaners, use the old buddy system on steam cleaners to decide who gets to abuse and who don't (lol, you know, like your own brotherhood of whales...lol) (just the way life is sometimes), in the meantime let people who aren't abusing go at it freely without retribution, let those who earn rewards for comments and post that don't violate terms keep their rewards and let people show their dislike of a comment or post by downvoting it. A lot of times I will click on flagged post just because I want to see who/what/why it got flagged, downvoting may bring my attention to a post just as much as looking at the rewards...I have to admit sometimes I'd rather see why a post is disliked more than liked, the liked post usually are long, drawn out post getting rewarded for something that doesn't interest me at all.
I like this option as well.. it separates the two use cases.
I think it's an excellent idea, because those of us with little SP could use the flag to warn about the abuse of the whales, but if there are only negative votes it would not help.
For example there are many who abuse the pool of rewards with bots and minnows we can not do anything because they return the downvote
Yes
This a good response. Disagreement and not liking something should not effectively censor it from view. The flag should be used for that. Though there is no real way currently to police improper use of the flag, and I don't expect that would change.
Yes
If we want to foster downvotes in general, they should appear like less of a punishment (flagging seems like you want to complain to authorities) and more of an expression of your opinion. This mechanism has worked with a lot of other centralized platforms and has provided mostly satisfactory results.
Many clients for Steem already employ this logic and - while one might argue that this hasn't changed much - average users will find this much more familiar to what they know from elsewhere.
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes 100%. Downvote means the opposite of upvote. Flag means the content is not appropriate for the current community / user interface.
Posted using Partiko iOS
Totally agree with @yabapmatt. Flag should be to report someone for abuse or something like that and should effect reputation. Downvote just means you don't like the post and shouldn't damage reputation.
Should it damage post rewards though? If so that's terrible for people who post unpopular opinions but aren't breaking any rules.
Posted using Partiko Android
yeah, that is a good point, that and I didn't think about what would happen if curation trails down voted. I don't know, I guess that is why they are polling, for ideas... I do feel another option needs to be available though, thinking of adoption and those coming from mainstream social media will know upvote, downvote, and flag, because that is basically standard across social platforms. But I guess someone would need to get all that figured out how the economy around it would work.
i will cancel all my downvote as soon as possible
This is exactly how the Steem reward system is meant to work. Rewards are crowdsourced, meaning it's up to the stakeholders to determine what rewards each post should earn. No posts are entitled to any rewards, there's is no objective measure of quality that determines a post's rewards. If you post something unpopular, then the crowd will likely decide that it should not be rewarded.
No one can take away your ability to post it, but the rewards are up to Steem stakeholders to allocate in any way they see fit based on their stake.
From what I understand of it, the current flag system is to remove rewards from things like spam and plagiarized content, not content you find displeasing. For example, say you have someone posting quality right wing political content and they are voted to nothing because people with opposing opinions want to protest it. From my understanding of Steems rules, this isn't how it's supposed to work. Am I wrong or misunderstanding something?
Steem, the blockchain, has no "rules" around when or why to upvote or downvote content. It is very simply a stake-weighted crowdsourcing system for rewarding content.
The reason you and many other people are confused or have misunderstandings about that is likely from the fact that steemit.com uses the term flag instead of downvote and has added their own list of "acceptable" reasons for doing so.
Ah, I see. That would make sense.
Disagreement on rewards is the only thing you could argue in your positions favor. However, I interpret that to mean low-quality/low-effort content with big payouts, not disagreements.
yes
totally agree to this opinion!
Couldn't agree more
semantics either way.
people will respond just as emotionally to losing rep/$ by calling it "downvoting" at the exact same level they do when it's called "flagging"
No.
Oversimplifying the flag system into "downvotes" is unnecessary and will produce unwanted effects.
Flagging a post or comment is done for specific reasons, and should be a very rare occurrence. People upvote sometimes just to show agreement. Changing the flag system to "downvotes" would encourage those people (a majority of the users) to use them to show disagreement.
Currently, we tend to show disagreement by commenting and laying out our thoughts. With the proposed change, many people will skip commenting on things they disagree with (after all, that will just get you downvoted), in favour of just leaving a downvote.
Flagging is for inappropriate content, direct attacks, and not too much else. We shouldn't encourage overuse of that by calling them "downvotes" and changing the warning popup.
I think I should be able to read a well-written original article which content I really liked, but where if I find it over-valued by the current number of upvotes I should be able to downvote it for no other reasons than to tune down the end rewards to a level I agree with. Then leave a positive reply to engage with the content.
One man's junk is another mans treasure, it shouldn't be up to you or anyone else to determine the value outside of not up voting. With all the bots running around on here and the ass kissers it wouldn't take long for a down vote that subtracts value to be used in the same way as a flag, it will even increase the amount of people who will be able to use it that way. For the platform to grow the punitive edge has to go.
Introducing downvotes next to upvotes should be accompanied by introducing a separate free downvote pool so that everyone can downvote without using their upvote mana.
Thus we could easily downvote obvious vote trading and also content promoted with bid bots that is not good.
They are never going to implement something that will harm bid bot use; those bots are mainly run by and making a bundle for those who hold the power.
It seems like you're kidding, your position is that ridiculous to me. But since you appear to be serious, I don't know what to do except shake my head.
We couldn't agree more, @Drutter. Thank you for saying something. Our hearts sunk when we found out. Remember when youtube went from a 5-star rating system and then just the more abused, dichotomous thumbs up or down? Anyway, the proof will be in the pudding that it's different: how many downvotes are going to be thrown around now compared to how often posts were flagged in the past? We rarely and appropriately used the flag system, and it worked, was a good system. Is Steemit becoming an Animal Farm?!
Should a doorknob on a burning building be wiped with Windex or Mr.Proper?
*Hint: who cares
best answer to this insulting post by @steemitblog
Thanks man. Check my new answer on this page, with the link to something great that was just made
Damn, I really want a resteem option for comments as next inconcequential UI enhancement right now. Brilliant 🤣
YES
I can't make up my mind. What's better: flag wars with people dragged into it without any clear reason, or perhaps downvote wars with people dragged into it without any clear reason?
I can't decide which name would make me feel better about hiding and hoping I don't get targeted by any of the sides.
Passive aggressive aside, i strongly feel much more could be done that would bring actual value: https://steemit.com/steem/@midlet/what-is-ux-and-why-it-s-the-1-problem-holding-steem-back
Kudos to you, my sentiment exactly. You get tired of tip toeing around the bullshit, let's get it on, let's remove the barriers of retaliation.
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they should kick out most of the incompetent devs and witnesses and hire in someone like you
There are so many things in this comment that I don't agree with it that I don't even know how to respond.
LMAO
Yes.
Flag is the term used for National flags.
Yes.
I echo everyone else who shares similar sentiments.
And why not use DPoll?
Beating children does not help. Quit the flag and downvote(wars) which will also liberate us of persons like @camillesteemer.
Exactly.
YES
Yes.
Since downvote is the exact opposite of upvote it would make sense to use these consistently. Flagging is a different action than upvoting, it seems now, while in fact a downvote and an upvote are the same, just expressing a different feeling.
Implementing this would only make sense if it's also implemented visually: by showing that it's 'the opposite of the same action' by placing upvote/downvote next to each other - instead if in two different locations, which suggests it's a totally different action.
delete
I thought porn was okay on here. I thought there was even a dporn app and tag. I haven't posted anything in it or anything, but I have seen porn on here.
delete
I get why you might say that's fucked up. I'm not too bothered by it personally since I'd assume there's no or minimal kids on here, and the posts are generally hidden with a nsfw tag so people don't have to see them if they don't want to, but it is also just I guess a little odd as it kind of feels like it is similar to if a website like YouTube had all the Pornhub and Redtube (and whatever other ones there are) videos just mixed in with all the other videos. This is better than that would be because it has tags that posts stay within - I could just imagine porn on the trending page of YouTube (don't think that would go down too well) - but websites which have everything including stuff like porn can be odd sometimes.
I write fiction which sometimes includes stuff to do with sex etc (not erotica but just the same as a TV show, novels of a different genre or a movie might include sex in the plot etc) so I've used "sex" as a tag before and searching that tag to see what was there was how I've found the porn. It's not my thing, but it doesn't bother me personally either. It is odd when you come from / are used to other websites though that don't include stuff like that though.
Not the only place I've stumbled across it though. I made a GTA V video that included the King of the Castle challenge / mini-game thing and I used the hashtag #dirtyrascals on twitter. I clicked it and posts advertised a gay porn series called Dirty Rascals popped up. I find twitter seems to allow more stuff than Facebook at least but I don't know where their limits are. Twitter seems more likely to interfere with people because of user reports than because of the content I think. They do hide things with a warning it may contain offensive content, but they do a terrible job of it and overdo it so that it's impossible to know if what you un-hide is disturbing or offensive or not. It once hid someone posting the utorrent logo from me. That's nothing and didn't need to be hidden. I have shown / un-hidden and looked at things that were hidden that I would have preferred not to because of this.
As long as kids don't stumble across it, the porn doesn't bother me too much though. Power to the people who enjoy it, I guess. I can get why it might bother others though.
I'm having a little trouble taking this seriously though right now, as idk if you've seen The Orville or not but there was simulated porn (on a holodeck, so like VR but if it just was in that room as opposed to needing a headset or anything) in an episode of that, and all I can think of is that.
I would have a different proposal: have a single sliding bar for voting, with 0 on the middle, -100 on the left and +100 on the right. How would you like this?
Posted using Partiko Android
Sorry, I don't know am i eligible to reply this question.
But both NO.
Because you are trying to block abusing but this won' t help in my opinion. Before these image revisions you must have a better solution for this "Abuse" concept.
Sorry I do not have any offering for this solution for now. But don't worry i am thinking about it.
Thanks for interest.
No.
Please work on the development and mass adoption of STEEM.
very well said
yes
I'd like to rename it to "Apply Negative rshares". Much more user friendly. 😂 But sure downvote if you wanna be technical about it. I vote YES.
Btw, wtf is this BS I'm seeing, top banners while logged in?
Its called an ad there trying to make a profit. Hosting ain't cheap
I'm well aware of what an AD is, but last time I heard they were only showing them to people not logged in.
When was "last time"? It already shows to logged in users for quite a while now.
Well last time I was using Chrome on my mobile, so like a month ago. It only showed while being logged out. I switched to Brave now so the ad block kicked in.
Ads for logged in users is around 2 weeks ago or so
#sbi-skip
How do you like our stincy overlords now?
Seems i recall getting fed a line about community input when i got here.
Now they ask for it?
Smdh.
To be honest I can't really complain, I do use Brave now so the ad block blocks it anyway. I only noticed it because I opened Chrome instead.
I do like the Steemit website (even with its flaws), but I swear I remember it was said it was only for logged out users, and I hadn't seen any announcements saying it had changed. But Steemit is my favourite frontend, so community input would be nice, even if it is to monetise the website, which I am actually FOR. But I would rather they did it so the users can pay with crypto to advertise on the website. It would make more sense to me and with an opt in/out feature.
Lol, you still think stinc gives a damn about us,...o.0
The cto that replaced dan said he didn't gaf about the first million users.
We are ruled by ego tripping petty tyrants.
They implemented ads for logged-in users once they were able to split the wallet from the condensor interface.
Try https://steempeak.com also! You will be surprised!
Yes. Downvotes are meant to be used to regulate rewards. Having them as a separate flag gives the impression that they are to be used only in extreme situations where abuse exists. Flags were never meant to be seen as bad, they were supposed to be a natural part of reward distribution in the ecosystem.
Yes
Yes,
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes.
"Rendering a downvote is technically just a user expressing their opinion that a post is overvalued"
'Rendering a downvote'? Sounds like the team's verbiage has already changed. I also note that you argued heavily in favour of this change. I'm thinking it has already been decided and is just being fake-run-by the community to pretend there was some public consultation.
Sooo....
Flagging is just expressing the opinion that a post is overvalued? Wow, that's news to me! I've never been using flags that way. I've only used them on inappropriate content, people trying to glitch the site code, and calls for violence.
All those posts on the 'trending' and 'hot' tabs that are clearly overvalued are the legitimate targets of all our flags?!? Hmmm!
YES x 10000000
Yes
ETC
Both Needed !
Do Something Goooooood for Steem ♨ !
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes, could help self-regulate the platform better and does not sound as harsh as a flag. But maybe both are needed.
Yes.
Ideally introduced together with separate voting mana for downvotes.
Yes!!! 100%
YES.
Posted using Partiko iOS
I don't like it. we could have downvote wars now
this is not good...but with a flag you don't lose any money
with a downvote you would, and could lose all of it...it would also mean that freedom of speech is in jepardy...if you were afraid to say something because it could get downvoted then you might not say it
you could end up as some soul less entity with nothing worthwhile to say
because if you said something someone, or the establishment didn't like you would be ostrasized...in the form of downvote
they have up and down voting on utube, but you don't lose any money from down votes
and when i see a down vote i always think it is from some idiot
not a valid thing.
Everyone is different and do and say things differently
some are so narrow minded they will fight you to make you feel wrong
and down voting in my opinion is doing that...in an ideal system it might be alright, but there are too many ones who will miss-use it. So I say: no
I totally agree, if downvotes can be punitive this ship will sink faster than it already is.
"But with a flag you don't lose any money"
Not only do you lose anything earned on the post, you lose reputation points!
There are serial flagers out there with bots who have no problem flagging a post simply for who upvoted the post.
Why bother putting your creativity out there just to have it hidden and all value lost because you get an upvote from someone a whale is at war with and the whale attacks you?
How is a minnow ever going to get ahead? They can't. I guess they could creat 100's of accounts and up-vote themselves!
I know several content creators who are under constant attack
Do something about the abusers or it won't matter what you do.
As a minnow I don't know anything, so it's a shame that there isn't more information so I can be informed as to what is best. Here in the UK we voted for brexit, but now, after finding out that the government was telling us all lies we want to stay in the EU; if only there had been some proper information about it. Thanks for the warning...
Yes, it's a reasonable change, as long as it doesn't take 6 months to implement and delay other needed work. I'm pretty sure it's just the name of a button on the site.
It seems like everything takes 6 months (or more) to implement on here...
In Former Yugoslavia, it was called "workers self-governing socialism".
Every factory was governed by common workers.
They were voting about everything, you know, what should be the colour of pencils and simultaneously Top Management stuff.
As you could imagine it was an epic failure
Because common workers know nothing about top management and top managers know nothing about nuts and bolts
Sounds like the book, "Animal Farm." I wonder if the point (really) was to get the workers to mentally invest in their jobs more so they would be okay with working harder.
It's a great question, and not intuitive at all.
Here is the trick, it's hard to work hard. You need to master the craft, you need to learn more, to compete, to be more and more creative.
In that case, some will become the true masters and those will be paid more, those will be wanted more. Those will be at the top.
However, in a system where all the people
areneed to be equal, you must create a different "scoring system".It will not matter if you are the best, but some weird things, such as:
I'm serious about those questions.
Those gatherings of basically incompetent were used to enjoy the easiness of Dani Kruger effect, and "earn points". Just be loud and say that in leaders you trust and that you will never choose another path.
Who the hell is a doctor to tell me about vaccines? Who the hell is an architect to tell me how to build? Who the hell is an engineer to teach me how to make stuff?
Sounds familiar, right?
If there is anything I have learned after being on this planet for 50 years is that one must dig deeper for the "real" information. One will never find it on the propaganda box called the television.
I appreciate your input @alexs1320. I will never know everything, so it is wonderful to hear your perspective. Thank you for taking the time to make such a thoughtful response!
I like to talk to people who spent more time on this planet than me, because the official history is often forgetting one important thing: what was the sentiment?
Do you remember the euphoria from winter 2017, concerning crypto?
Today, there are more ATMs, better regulations, more users, more Apps, but something is missing.
There is no real progress. This is why I believe that this "decentralised, amateur, volunteers" can not work. This is a job for those with 5+ Million power and some Pros. Big contracts with influential people, companies, brands... And maybe, just maybe something could change
For the last 3 decades (or more) it has been about building and supporting community for me, wherever I land. Also, defining and refining the word community with regards to my personal needs and wants over the years. I have been very lucky to have experienced many flavors and varieties of communities and my take-away is that we do actually need each other (probably more than we realize). We are being programmed to think that we can get along without the help of the other, but this is a false assumption.
I could wallow in the negative but I try to keep positive with regards to humans and where we are headed. I just take care of myself and my community and hope for the best. God willing something positive will happen that influences another generation.
Exactly. Then why are we repeating the same terrible ideas here? They know what needs to be done and they should just do it. Steemit.com is a private website, if we don't like it we can move to another app. Simple as that.
Because most of the people know History Channel History a.k.a. "maybe aliens".
We can move to another app. True, and that is what we are doing, Trybe is cool, a similar concept. And there are always FB, Insta, whatever.
The problem is one psychological phenomenon. Once you have invested the time, it's difficult to quit. The same goes for bad job, bad relationship, bad town, car...
Good points.
lol, 6 months in debate first, then 6 months to get done
This is the most surrealistic posting I have ever encountered on the Steemit platform.
I don't know whether these witness fucktards are serious or just laughing in our face.
i find it interesting how a Yes or No question is answered. Yes button / No button. lol
And what colour should those buttons then be? And what form? Round, or square or rounded? questions, questions, questions...
lol
Except in most cases it doesn't even actually get done in those second 6 months. See SMTs, communities, and most of the other things that were intended to add value. In all fairness if the chain couldn't scale it couldn't scale but supposedly now it can, at least in terms of costs, we will see what they do with that.
Exactly.
Also put two button next to each other uparrow and downarrow...
BUt once again - not that it is crucial thing that needs improving at this moment - and all the things we are still waiting.
However keeping it just the same format I don't think will change anything.
Do you think people (small staked one) would actually downvote people with no-content-inside-thepost who self-voted to $50. when their upvote is 0.01... when the same account can destroy everything.
Now interesting thing would be anonymously reporting these posts and abuse to someone other than steemcleaners(with sooo large staked steem that can suppress any abuse) which would be reviewed and taken actions against (keeping the flag hidden above the post) and putting downvote near upvote.
Even better, make both buttons in 5 different styles and colours, to be more inclusive
By the way, something actually important, Log-In via FB, Google, etc...
Just published
https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@steemlogin/steemlogin-a-new-and-easy-way-to-sign-in-to-steem
This is great. Allowing people to not worry about their keys each time they want to go play a game or make a post is what we need.
That is one more selling point, look, people, it's so easy!
Hey, people, you know, there are two types of rewards, one is for curators and another one is for authors. You know, it was 75/25, but maybe, just maybe, it would be better if it's 50/50, you know. In reality, you will earn, something like a dollar or less, and you will be both author and curator no matter what. But, you know, it's like, you know, super important :D
this is not a selling point
I do see a problem with different colors though, what about the chromatically challenged co-Steemians?
A good point actually, upvote 4 you...
And this is why it should be done by a professional(s) :D
It's not easy at all
Who cares how its called... Fix other stuff and improve the platform from BETA
Rendering an upvote is technically just a user expressing their opinion that a post is undervalued, but a thumbs up connotes a positive moral or legal judgment about the content.
See how easy that was?
Tempest, meet Teapot.
[YES]
Yes
It makes things clearer. Can't use flags though for something else for a while as it now carries a connotation on Steem which will mean a lot of 'emotions' when someone gets flagged, even though it isn't a downvote. Should change over ttime if the community expands though.
Also... SMTs :P
I already call flags downvotes because it makes more sense.
Steemit should do the same.
Yes
Yes
Downvote button next to the upvote one that cannot go below 0 rshares (hide content)
List top votes with downvotes at the bottom. (less visible)
We could extract some very valuable curation from the few downvotes that may occur.
It won't affect the reward distribution or "people exploit the rewards pool" until there are cheaper downvotes implemented in the form of a separate downvote pool that doesn't take from your upvoting power.
https://steemit.com/steem/@transisto/improving-negative-curation-a-downvote-button-vs-flag-explained-condenser
If the downvote button is next to the upvote button, then I think it's certain that some of the time (even if it's less than 1% of the time) people will click the wrong button by mistake. I would consider it bad User Interface and Experience design. If the buttons are not at all close to each other, it would be much better.
Each side of the reward amount was suggested.
That's close enough for people to understand they are related.
If it doesn't hide content, how do you deal with people retaliating flags with dick and shit pictures?
Author blacklist options in the interface?
I think steempeak already does this.
That doesn’t solve the problem of the outside world stumbling across a post with 100 images of dicks because I flagged their spam.
If they see it on steempeak, it will.
Is there anything, other than interface blacklists, that can stop it?
It's just a fact of the blockchain until the population of those kind of folks decreases?
Sites have moderators. On Steem that’s the community.
You can argue free speech and allow people to plaster dicks everywhere but is that what we want.
I recently flagged a spammer and he did just that. Posting tons of porn gifs in all my posts. I had a few people ask me if Steem turned into RedTube.
There has to be some way for the community to collectively moderate if we want to be decentralized without authority.
Think about what it makes us look like to the outside world looking in.
I get it, and if your readers use your muting preferences then they will never see them.
Good luck getting stinc to do something like that, though.
They seem to be on the other side from most of us.
You use the flag for that.
If there is still a mechanism for that then I am in agreement.
The problem on Steemit is not dick and shit pictures - hell, they would be a lot more interesting than 90% of what is being posted now, the problem is that all the real bloggers have been driven off the platform by relentless flagging by hundreds of bots belonging to whales.
It's interesting in a perverse way of to see the controlled upvoting on the comments on this ridiculous "poll" - this really has to be some kind of farce! Does anyone actually think any of this is real? I'd rather look at some dick and shit pictures.
Having this bullshit pinned to my feed as a "featured post" was the final straw that convinced me that Steemit really is all over...
And then seeing that a new downvote button is already there the very next day, on a platform that literally can't fix a major user interface balls up like no longer sorting followed accounts alphabetically, after many months, shows just want a con this "poll" always was.
I have no idea what the aim of Steemit's devious controllers really is, but downvoting and flagging is all about control, censorship, and profiteering. Which is why, like nearly all my Steemit friends, I have quit posting and given up on this platform.
Spam, porn spam, bid bots, plagiarism, and other forms of abuse are rampant nowadays.
Speaking of shit, I took a dump in your wallet! Take a trip to the bathroom to claim your worthless SHIT!
Yes
How about yes and no and then no. You vote for one means you encourage it. You vote for another, you are frowned upon. I would say yes because it would stop the stupidity with flag wars and I would say no, because it encourages downvoting in stupid ways just like the flag wars.
And then just plain NO to this whole dpoll. The focus shouldnt be on this at all. Think about it. What is the main reasons for flagging, and the main reasons for downvoting. The real reasons. Now that system is being abused, there are bots flagging and downvoting and people being too easily insulted getting all butthurt so they use those clickers to make themselves feel happy with what little (or big) revenge they can have.
So put the focus on something more important than just changing the "look" of things. It's a waste of time.
In my opinion, what difference does it make? When all steemians know what a flag means and a downvote means... I think we should give more importance to those users/bot that flag good contents for no reason at all so that they could get everyone´s attention...
Yes, making them a dislike/downvote will make them feel more natural and less of a big deal as a flag may suggest from our use with other platforms.
Posted using Partiko iOS
depends:
if you flag an original post its a flag. if you downvote a comment its a downvote.
the original post has some creational value attached to it and unless that guy really wrote some hatefull shit if you flag that you are a penis that does not respect content creators being paid. this btw already has been implemented on busy.org
So you're basically just putting lipstick on the pig?
You're just changing the name and not the actual functionality of a flag/downvote it sounds like to me. So all the negativity is still going to be there because most people don't flag to counter an "abuse" of the reward pool. 99% of flags are used to punish so called bad behavior like spam or plagiarism.
Also flagging is used as a form of censorship by punishing posts that some may deem inappropriate or offensive by taking away some or all of the monetary gains from that post in an effort to discourge that person from posting more "offensive" things in the future.
I get that countering the abuse of the reward pool is an important issue but I see abuse of the pool going like crazy now with the use of upvote bots. So is it really doing what it was designed to do? I don't think so.
I would personally like to see fagging removed completely from the code or at least the monetary impact and if things get out of hang with reward pool abuse than add it back in but I think the community would be a much happier place without flagging and all the drama it causes.
Well said!
If 99% of flags were being used to punish so called bad behavior then why is it that you see so much bad behavior still existing among those with the most power?
I am totally with you as to if this is just putting lip stick on a pig, if a downvote can cancel out a upvote all they are going to be doing in the long run is enabling a lot more people to be punitive toward each other if they want based on opinion not abuse.
I agree whales can get away with more and that's one of the reasons I think flagging hurts the platform more than helps it.
...sometimes it doesn't even have to be whales it can just be someone with a bit more power. Being a blogger for years I was quite shocked when I first came on here thinking this was a open debatable platform of opinions only to be told to f off and if I came back I wouldn't like what was going to happen to me. Once, with a woman who is a reporter who has a blog on here no less, after giving my opinion she just replied I was a joke and flagged me. lol.
If the monetary impact was removed from flags, what would your suggestion be to deal with a plagiarized post that has a sizeable payout?
I've seen people make a lot of money plagiarizing articles and once they get outted the upvoting stops and they abandon the account. This all happens with no flags being given out.
If you see an article that is plagiarized, report it to steemcleaners. Not only will they flag it (if need be) you'll get some tiny reward as well for reporting it.
Honestly I think flagging should be an option used for abuse that people can tag that will bring the attention of Steem Cleaners down upon the post. They can view it and determine the action that needs to be taken/addressed. I think it will stop the abuse of flagging people just because they don't like what's said versus the post being abusive, and encourage those with lower sp to flag abuse, right now low sp holders flagging a post really doesn't do anything and most won't take the time to contact steem cleaners to report the abuse.
But steemcleaners are just regular users too, if you remove the monetary impact of the flag then they wouldn't have the ability to remove any rewards.
I was trying to say they probably would be the best way to deal with what post get flagged and/or determining who they should bring in to deal with bot abuse like what markymark does.
NO. This is the real use of those features, but people don't understand it.
Downvote means the opposite of upvote. Flag means the content is not appropriate for the blockchain because of its nature.
I think it's necessary to have both features, because they are important to the blockchain, I just think the buttons needs to be placed together, and when you click on them should appear a pop up telling you what that action means and its consequences.
Besides that it seems to me that downvote should not be able to have so much weight against the user unless that vote is given several times, because many users with power can simply harm other users without any logical reason.
Ban from list of followers - This is the best solution. Flag - downvote = fear
Yes! Considering most every other stem platform refers to it as "Downvoting" I think it is important that Steemit recognize this, and change the verbiage to say "Downvote" instead of "Flag"
yes
Yes
Flags
Yall went with flag as a label for downvote and I would prefer we stick with it.
Unless there is a functional reason, making these sort of changes should be avoided as it breaks dependencies / relationships.
As I see it, this change is more cosmetic than anything. I vote for "Save the Flags!"
You mean, we can't do the parody of Steemit Defence League, but Steem Downvote League? lol
I do agree that it's only a cosmetic change.
Yes. Semantics matter.
Yes.
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes.
I don't have that much experience of Steem but what others say seems reasonable.
If there is other more urgent things that need to be addressed then these trivial things aren't that important imo.
Yes, encouraging downvotes would be a great way to regulate the "trending" sections. And it could make bidbots unprofitable for low-quality posts.
I doubt it... everyone can use flag for the same thing today.
Indeed.
However, there are two problems, which won't be solved by changing the name from "flag" to "downvote":
Yes, this makes sense to me
Yes
To be honest I am not even sure why this is a poll. You guys should just fix it. Clearly it is a "yes". Having upvotes and downvotes would be much more congruent with how just about every other social site works, don't even ask, just fix it. A flag is something else entirely. Why is it that everything takes months on here? Literally...
Other sites down votes aren't punitive, they don't subtract anything other than someone's pride. If down votes are used to take away rewards of up votes it just opens up the platform for someone with more power and his followers to gang up on you and take away your rewards....and it still leaves open the window for them to stalk, harass and remove rewards on other comments/post you make
That is pretty much how this site works, yes. It is stake weighted, so those with the most stake are king.
Yes it's the way this site works but it's also what's killing it. Doesn't matter someone has more stake in the platform, outside of someone abusing the platform those with more stake shouldn't be allowed to flag/take away rewards of someones just because they oppose their opinion.
How should it work then?
I am not technology minded so I don't know what can or can't be set up. To take away the punitive fear factor to get the best possible participation to occur as far as having the most eyes out there surveillance for abuse is key. Everyone running around with a wild, wild, west policing system where my gun is bigger than yours just isn't working for this platform. I think one of the best suggestions I seen on this thread came from someone who made a drop down bar where people clicked on the reason they were flagging the thread. A system like that would work out quite well and put everyone on level footing and take the fear factor out. Of course that would entail setting up a team of experts willing to deal with the flags and determine what the outcome should be. Who flagged the post and who sits on the panel of experts should stay anonymous to the general public, that way you don't have someone with more sp taking out revenge on someone for flagging with less sp or whales/witnesses/appointees setting on the panel splitting hairs with whales who (and I am just being honest here not judgmental, it's not my platform) also abuse the platform. You could have a resolution channel on Discord set up to discuss any concerns towards actions taken with those interacting from the panel only be addressed as resolution specialist #1, #2, #3, etc., for those who want to discuss the action in private. That seems like a fair and equitable way for the platform to flourish in regards to participation not in the sense of catching abuse but increasing the level of participation on the site and in the comments, who knows maybe we will would then actually see this site have articles that produce in time real conversations whether than operate like a email system where I send you a comment then you send me one back maybe hours, days later.
Yes and is a pleasure to see new change on the way.
Posted using Partiko Android
Yes, as some people get all upset by a flag.
Yes, as some people get owl upset by a flag.
I am a bot. I detect owl related puns.
Good bot.
Sorry but this is more important than flags or downvotes for me now
https://steemit.com/steemit/@bidesign/here-is-how-to-see-images-on-steemit-when-broken-4hegqgby
that is indeed a real shame for those in charge here
I think they do not care about my unvalued account
Posted using Partiko iOS
No
it's not a new thing that makes steem stronger it's just changing the name from flag to down vote BUT if you guys are going to do that please don't put the downvote button beside upvote button because a lot of people will click the wrong button like if someone wanna upvote he/she will click downvote by wrong and vice versa :)
peace.
Very good suggestion.
even if you click flag now, you get the wawning that you are about to FLAG the post/comment and you need to confirm it...
so accidental downvotes wouldn't happen - unless your steemfriend just hates you for getting bigger rewards than he/she is.
They need to be placed on the same level and no warning, You can remove and change your vote many times.
it can be that you able to change it in a few minutes until it registered in the blockchain
but I don't think we need it
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes.
This change could allow the community to provide a greater range of feedback.
yes
yes
Yes
No.
Because people work hard for those tips, opinions earned those tips and opposite opinions shouldn't erase them.
Yes
No. We should have both. I also believe I should have a say about not having ads on my blog site.
Yes, use downvotes but this should not be at the top of the priority list.
Posted using Partiko iOS
Yes. Much more clear.
Yes and no.
The downvote/flag process should be reviewed. Right now, if you have a lot of SP you can downvote anyone you want even if they don't deserve it. This happens a lot. So much abuse. This needs to be fixed ASAP.
We don't care about the names.
Yup, I agree with @d0zer on this one.
So much abuse?
BTW you deserved that one.
What do you mean with "BTW you deserved that one." ?
Flag didn't register. fixed
Why was that necessary?
You can do the same in opposite direction if your VP is sufficient.
There's no censorship on Steemit? Only in theory!
Yes.
Yes
As much as we have listened to people complain about being flagged it's about time.
That or emotions like Facebook would be wise as well. Though, id make it so users can set what %'s the emotions have. Say an angry face is worth -50% upvote or smoke coming out ears is 100%.
Regardless users are going to complain, the better option is to keep flags but for steemits benefit to log abusers. So, id say keep flags and add downvotes.
If only a yes or no is accepted, I'll vote Yes.
But here's another idea, why not have both then use analytics and see which one users will most likely use?
I just think that there has to be a difference in functionality or use for each one. Like flags should be anonimous? I'm not sure. And flags should be reported or sent to a third party and then this 3rd party (@steemcleaners perhaps) will be the one who will take action on the report or flag.
I'm just concerned of the flag wars I heard that happened before.
Many times. Very negative user experience. Especially since not all participants are equal in such a war.
Yes. I support the change from 'flag' to 'downvote'.
I would give a big fat 'NO'.
To my mind a flag should only be applied when someone is posting outright illegal subject matter. It should not be about one's opinion of what constitutes a valuable post. There are individuals on here that I would never upvote because I do not personally enjoy what they produce. There are even times I find what they do to be offensive. But I also know that my opinion is not flawless and I should not rule the world or steem with it.
I was remarking to a friend from another social media site today, that steemit does not suffer from trolls the same way his said platform does. That is because the flag is effective, the way it is. Changing flags to downvotes would probably encourage people to use it. They would see it as an opportunity to express their opinions and that is is, in my opinion, what the comment section is for. The flag button should only be used in extreme situations. We should be encouraging people to support other bloggers and not downvote those we disagree with or even worse are jealous of because they have received a large payout.
Now that steemit is a monetized platform through ads. We want to encourage the folks on here to come back and come back often. You do not want them chased off by downvotes.
Generally speaking, a blogger receives upvotes because of two reasons. They have paid for promotional bots, which must maintain steem power to be of any use, or they have networked and produced in a sustained and positive manner. Either way, they are supporting the ecosystem that is steem and neither way should they be punished for it.
Nice commentary.
No.
How about you fix that stupid fucking ad that drops down at the top of the page and obscures obscures everyone's profile and hides the follow button.
If i had an Apple Pencil I would screenshot and draw what I recommend but pretty much a red downvote button to the right of the pending payout amount.
#downvotes sounds so negative though -
So the function works the same, it's just a name change for clarity? Sure, yes. But I'm confused by the hivemind communities part you mentioned - does that mean when we get groups someday, there will be a new, separate function called flagging that works differently? Or am I totally lost? LOL
I think you’re reading it exactly right. Hivemind communities that are user run will have ownership & moderators. It sounds like a flagging function is built there which resembles what 99.99% of flags on the internet are, a means of signaling moderators to review content. This creates the need to “rebrand” the current flag to a more accurate downvote description.
Perfect! Thanks for the clarity. Then doubly yes. :)
Downvote makes more sense since you are upvoting on posts.
Yes
Yes.
Flag will be much easier.. Just a click
Downvote implies content you disagree with. Flag implies content that breaks rules. I say stick with flag.
Posted using Partiko Android
or have both. Downvotes is there to represent you disagreeing with rewards or how high it is sorted among comments. Flags are there to report abuse of steemit ToS and when enough people flag a post, it is reviewed to see if the content should be taken down (from steemit, not from the Steem blockchain of course, which is impossible).
i will cancel all my downvote as soon as possible
Are you also saying users shouldn't be able to point out their disagreement?
No, but I think if downvotes are allowed they shouldn't impact payouts. Flags should though.
Posted using Partiko Android
From what I understand of it, the current flag system is to remove rewards from things like spam and plagiarized content, not content you find displeasing. For example, say you have someone posting quality right wing political content and they are voted to nothing because people with opposing opinions want to protest it. From my understanding of Steems rules, this isn't how it's supposed to work. Am I wrong or misunderstanding something?
Disagreement on rewards is the only thing you could argue in your positions favor. However, I interpret that to mean low-quality/low-effort content with big payouts, not disagreements.
Those are listed as "Some common reasons to flag" and typically "I don't like this" could fall under "Disagreement on rewards", as you had mentioned.
If someone thinks the post doesn't deserve rewards at all, then they can flag it as it's a disagreement on rewards. It doesn't require it to be low quality or low effort for someone to disagree on rewards.
But still, those are only listed as some common reasons to flag, as people can flag for any reason. Just like they can upvote without having a specific reason to upvote content.
Reading a bunch of the comments, it appears like they are mostly opinions without much thought behind them. It is a very complex topic and people use down-votes differently than they use up-votes, so it isn't a simple symmetry. Honestly, the whole concept of up-votes and down-votes lies on some very questionable assumptions of group cohesion. For instance, the popularity of a movie tends to be a counter-indicator of it being a persistent cult classic.
As a society moves further away from 'healthy' 'unhealthy' things rise in popularity and 'healthy' things decline. Substitute X & ~X for 'healthy', 'unhealthy' to get the the generalized principle for any dipole category. I think when people publicly classify content in some way, they should be publicly classifying themselves as well. The current system doesn't have that aspect. Going back to the movie popularity example, imagine how useful it would be if you could factor out all of the votes from people who think car crashes are the most important aspects of movies.
Another example: Imagine having a popularity contest for fruit. If strawberry wins and it also happens to be your personal favorite, you would probably see nice effects from that result. If your favorite is actually orange, you may see some kind of negative results. Most people may actually prefer something other than the popular fruit. What does a popularity contest achieve? Is it intended to validate the people who like strawberries? Provide a social pressure to people who like oranges to conform?
This isn't a dissertation, so that is enough to hint at the serious problems underlying the popularity assumption. I personally don't think any particularly interesting results are going to come without looking at the bigger meaning context. I.e. it doesn't really matter what you do with down-votes because it will still be fundamentally flawed.
Many of the people who have left a short "yes" have written more than 10 posts and spent hours on Discord chats explaining why they are in favour.
yes 100%
You have to state it correctly as a downboat.
This is because I don't know well and I can click on the first one.
Yes
Yes
YYYYes
Negative curation should work as a mirror image of upvoting.
Each valued equally in the math.
Downvoting should be eligible for curation rewards, too.
How that is plotted in the math needs some discussion, but all this hate directed at negativity really needs to stop.
Dissent is essential to finding the truth.
Why should fake positive curation get rewarded when real negative curation gets stiffed?
Just the change proposed by the post is pointless.
Those that complain will just use whichever term is suitable.
Yes.
YES !
Having UPvote and DOWNvote is way more recognizable in comparison with the UPVOTE + FLAG ! as illustrated below
VS
YES
Yes.
Other people have stated reasons much more eloquently than I, so I'll just express my thoughts (as is my wont) via GIPHY...
via GIPHY
I think flagging and downvoting being separate is a great idea. Like downvoting a youtube video just because it sucks is different than hitting the "report video" because the video has like animal abuse or something.
Keep both options, downvote & flag
1.What if the downvote could not be larger than the current biggest upvote of the post?
2.and flag should be by default 100% without option to change it
Can't we discuss the sex of the angels in stead? Seems to make more sense to me.
During the siege of Constantinople in 1453, the Orthodox Byzantines were debating the sex of angels instead of defending the fortress. Thus the failure of the Byzantine world ironically stems from the disengagement of the Church from society and its immediate reality.
http://www.nicodimgallery.com/exhibitions/on-the-sex-of-angels
Sorry... My bad English don't allowed me to understand!
My suggestion was also to keep both but to make the downvote not able to reach below zero or below the amount to hide a comment, (I think -10m rshares)
Bin both and get rid of the clowns who have trashed this platform!
Oh bugger...too late...
I like keeping both. While I would agree that using the downvote is the most logical. Flagging represents a greater escalation in my own mind. One may be used for content the other for behavior.
I think keeping both is a great idea - but would suggest the downvote button not to be next to the upvote so that people can't mistakenly choose the wrong button :)
Reddit style... they don't seem to have problems
Yeah, because things are not confusing enough.
Just because you don't know who our users are....
They will not understand and they will use the wrong thing.
Can we please make things easy for once?
Yes
Yes
Flags should be used for abuse/plagiarism/disagreement on rewards, when a flag is used it takes away monetary value from a post or comment.
Downvotes should be used on "disliking a post" to show that you don't agree with it/don't like it/whatever, but it doesn't take away any value from the post itself.
Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I want to take value away from their content.
To my way of thinking the question is irrelevant.
The real issue is:
Should a down vote or flag be weighted according to the amount of steem in your account.
imho it most certainly should not.
nor should people who hold multiple accounts (some hold literally hundreds of account) be entitled to flag or down vote the same post from multiple accounts.
Until you sort out these issues this place is fucked
BYE
Yes
Hello,
You can call it how you want:
FLAG or DOWNVOTE
It's absolutely UNSOCIAL‼️
WHY?
because of the system of steem.
A user with high voting power can flag or downvote a smaller users account to zero.
Many people left Steemit because of that already or stopped posting.
So don't think about how to call it, think about to remove it.
Have a good day
Tom
Posted using Partiko Android
HAd the same thoughts.
What about those "flamig-pools" like camillesteemer and his retarded friends?
They flag down like crazy. So I think if they were more powerful they would have the potential to ruin a lot here on steemit.
Neither does camillesteemer have any power to be regarded relevant nor is that bot flagging that aggressive as you try to say.
Each of us is looking away from accounts like mepatriot. Why are we doing so?
I feel any flag bringing to our minds that some people's ideas of free speech really is a threat to society is more than deserved.
And now all the witness degenerates keep their mouth shut.
Only way to remove downvotes successfully is to remove the value of upvotes. How many pushing for removal of “downvotes” would approve of that? You cannot have one without the other in a reward society like this.
There needs to be a cultural change and would hopefully lead to less abuse... or more people standing up to counter “abuse”.
Also, one downvote shouldn’t turn someone into a victim who now rages about being censored and abused.. change the culture, fix the issue in my opinion.
I was an advocate for no downvote for a long time. The problem is that opens the door to gaming the system worse than it already is. Those with high power can purely up vote and collude to only put increasing amounts of the reward pool to themselves and their friends. They can up vote stuff with very little effort put into it but pay it out huge sums. Without a down vote there is no way to counter this.
The problem is that this is truly decentralized. There is no police force that can stop abuse. Even hidden posts are still visible on the blockchain if you use a different concentrator (website/app).
So while I don't like what the FLAG (currently) does. I have not thought of a way to get rid of it that won't open the door to more extreme abuses. This is the only reason I don't advocate it's removal.
I do think those that abuse it and use it to censor and oppress should be discouraged somehow and there are some groups that try to do that.
There must come a cap on max voting power - I would prefer max 1000 SP voting power. That way the whales automatically dissapear.
That would work... though it would remove some incentive to invest and accumulate more steem power. Though it may be worth the trade off.
Yes.
Yes
yes.
downvote without the negative connotations of a flag
Yes
Yes
If you're here for feedback, you could start by removing the 7 day monetisation window for content. It encourages low value content as the author knows it can only earn income within the first seven days. If you really want to monetise the "long tail" of content, you need to allow content to earn rewards for as long as people can view it
You brought up an issue here that would much more enhance the positive atmosphere on Steemit. Unless you are a very talented person in blogging/vlogging, when you come from a poor country or if you have little money, you will never make any money on Steemit, but rather loose time, energy and end up with negative feelings and frustration
There should be some sort of protections in place to protect smaller accounts from flagging abuses because Bernie Sanders likes to attack people in order to get his point across from what I've heard. Actions like this cause smaller accounts to quit out of fear and frustration which simply isnt cool. We need to grow not shrink our user base!
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes, please change the flag to a downvote.
The community is filled with misconceptions of what downvotes mean.
I think you got your answer right there. Keeping the flag and having a downvote would be my choice.
Also, could you make that if I select some text inside the post I can quote it in a more easy-fastest way? You could add the bold and italic shortcut too.
yes
Yes, I prefer downvotes instead of flags.
Neither of the two systems prevents abuse. For this reason, the method that causes the least damage in a situation of abuse is necessary. If no option is perfect, it is necessary to choose the least bad.
yes
YES
Flag should remain as a way to report. Up and down vote should be widely spaced so no person clicks down vote in error.
Yes!!!
Choice seems obvious to me. Changing from "flag" to "downvote" is a huge improvement.
Yes.
Yes, flags should be changed to downvotes. It is easier for users to understand the concept. Flagging is sth i did not understood when i joined steemit. Also downvote or dislike, lets say is a button that the users of established social media like Fb having been asking for a lot of years. It is true that a downvote can do damage but it is vital to exist because people like to express their positive feelings and their negative ones.
Yes
Put two button next to each other
like 👍 unlike 👎
A flag is supposed to be a rewards disagreement. As we both know 'rewards for posting' is what made Steem special/different than other platforms.
"Thumbs down" aka "Dislike" is just sort of an insult used towards content creators on ALL other platforms.. based on the viewer DISLIKING something.. we can all agree the consensus view of 'thumb down' is a result of the viewer having a negative feeling towards the content they are looking at eg. A vegan looking at someone eat steak.
But the flag was for a true 'post reward disagreement', for example if a user stole content and tried to profit from it eg. they uploaded the entire James Cameron Titanic film to DTube.. this would be a reason to FLAG (disagreement on rewards).. and we could all agree this deserves a 'flag' due to a 'rewards disagreement'..
but now... just because something is 'disliked' it will get the old 'thumbs down' due to an 'emotional response' by the viewer disliking what they see.
This will rape more people of rewards.. and not be based on:
but will now be based on a negative 'emotional' response. And the post will loose value because Billy is a Vegan and didn't want to see Sally eat steak.
Whereas if there was still a flag.. Billy would be more likey to be aware of his DISLIKE for watching sally eat steak.. but generally he would know it was not:
.. most likely Billy would close out the page, and or leave a comment expressing his feelings.. and go on his way.
In this case Sally will get mad at Billy and retaliate as she knows full stop that she did not commit fraud, theft, plagiarism etc. etc. etc.. so odds are she will have an emotional reaction as humans are emotional creatures to "Billy's THUMBSDOWN that ate her rewards" for NO GOOD REASON. So she will go and "Thumb Down" Billy as a response.. the old you push a guy, he will push back..
This will not only cause a higher loss of rewards that would otherwise have been received by creators through fair and honest posting.. but it will cause a higher number of "thumb downs" as you will have the ACTION/REACTION human emotional response.. then what you ask?? Well people will fight more that is what! The old divide and conquer!
End Result.. AS PLANNED...
Not to mention the Flag made Steemit "Unique".. even though it has been abused by whales, it was part of the Steemit Inc. BRAND IDENTITY.
Now not only will people suffer whale abuse for idiotic reasons that are not found here:
But people who simply 'dislike' a post will now ALSO be taking rewards from people.. but not for the SAID proper reasons.. but now just because they 'DISLIKE/thumbsdown' the content...
https://uxmovement.com/thinking/how-the-thumbs-uplike-button-is-dumbing-users-down/
So no more deciding on "removing someones rewards" based on the "appropriate reasons".
From now on it will be because people DISLIKE what their eyes see.
At any rate this is all a distraction tactic from what is happening in front of everyone's eyes.. I honestly think you do dumb shit like this on purpose.. you must think these people are fools Steemit.
In truth here is what you are doing. You are TRYING to sink your own ship so you can exit. Powering everything down, and actually working towards the demise of your own platform. Not by accident. Everything you do is by design. Time to close up shop huh Ned (and whomever is puppeting you)...
Some will say this is wonderful.. let Ned go.. let him power down! Put Steemit/Steem in everyone else's hands.. but we all know this is the end. Mark my words.. at the launch of the new blockchain project coming June/July 2019 this place will be a virtual ghost town.. it already is..
This is the oldest trick in the book. As you know. Many businesses when it has EXTRACTED enough profits coughs BLOOD from its consumers, literally burn their own businesses down at the end.. as one final act to A. have a great reason to bail/cash out.. and B. who can forget the insurance money! I would say this is pretty damn similar!
You are actively trying to destroy it.. the "experiment" is done.
Cheers!
You have received a negative vote.
Thanks expressing your ideas and opinions dear
With time We’ll have high trust society with our Blockchain
Remember Bitcoin has 3 major hard forks since introduction
And Bitcoin is 10 years old and STEEM is 3 years old
Flagging is an act of war here, if I don't like a post I should be able to downvote it without getting murdered. Under the current system you cannot express your displeasure with the contents of a whale post. I would go as far as to say downvotes should be anonymous.
Yes.
It won't make a difference when you have people who abuse the flag system, they will abuse the down vote the same with their 100's of accounts and bots.
Being flagged simply because the flagger has issues with someone who upvotes your posts is unfair and will destroy the community.
Just because someone is a whale does not give them the right to take down content out of spite for someone else.
What we need is a community appeal system. If the community finds a post was flagged for vindictive reasons and not for poor content, the flagger should lose reputation points and the poster should have the post un hidden and remonetized.
Something like a 4-eye-system.
So that spmming downvotes will be detected and not approved.
https://steemworld.org/@camillesteemer
Take a look here, and ask yourself what will happen if this guy and his retared frieds would have more power.
I did. The retarded guys are somewhere else. Why are you not angry at them?
During the siege of Constantinople in 1453, the Orthodox Byzantines were debating the sex of angels instead of defending the fortress. Thus the failure of the Byzantine world ironically stems from the disengagement of the Church from society and its immediate reality, while the event led to the spread of its knowledge to the West.
Does that sound familiar to someone in here? While STEEM is at an All Time Low, the guys running the show are discussing "should we choose a flag or a thumbs down"? hmmm... let us think about it for a while
this model?
or this one?
or should we go for something like this?
or more like this?
or let's make a compromise, a transgender neutral
Or let's just be real and take this one
Yes
Yes and No, depending.
I would like to suggest the flag/down-vote terminology should be implemented according to impact.
Ideally, I think, a change to the underlying APIs would be needed to further untangle the situation according to intent.
terminology is important, but it does not change the ontological state of the world. For the one who suffers from cancer, cancer is cancer. It does not matter to him/her that there is also a benign form. And this network suffers.
ideally, a network consists of users, it derives its value by the number of users or more correctly the number of connections which can be established between nodes. Humans have a sense of fairness and they want fairness.
What's the point in inflating one ideological opinion of a high SP account and force it up on the whole network? One opinion (regardless of the SP) ideally does not matter in a society and if the opinions matters due to an ill algorithm/politics aka. lobbyism, then it hurts the reputation of the network aka. society.
(Im counting down the number of daily active users since months now and it gets lower an lower)
we are a little bit up today @ 3900 Users lel. Subtract the bots, divide by the number of actual subnetworks due to language barriers and apply a network model (e.g. metcalfe) to those and you see that Steem is going to die (or simply look into your feed). When a network reaches a certain threshold, then each node comes to a point where it can't make enough connections to derive any use from the network anymore aka. it becomes a boring and useless platform. It does not matter if the remaining users are "whales" fuck them, really fuck them it would be also in their interest.
Would I prefer to be spanked or beaten?
Well neither actually, which is why I powered down all my Steemit accounts and quit posting.
I wonder if whales will enjoy their public masturbation so much when nobody is watching...
This makes me wonder about your priorities.
Do whatever you like quickly, and then move on to more important things.
No way, bro! Spend a year talking about making an insignificant change, then ultimately never implement it. Then ask the community for advice and feedback on the next insignificant change that won’t happen anyway.
You know...keep people distracted from the fact that the economics/incentives are broken AF due to their stupid hard forks...and continue dumping on all of the users/investors.
That’s the secret sauce in the “top-5 to below-50 market cap” recipe!
It does seem to distract a fair number of people away from what really matters, there is that.
Yes
“Yes”, I propose to make price on Dislike and comments = 0.001STEEM, so that this is a tool of communication like/dislike, and not climbing pockets. Disliked - the author disappeared for an hour (-1), day (-2), week (-3), month (-4), year (-5). Feeds should be interesting, but not disgusting because of haters.
(And besides, the blockchain has dPoll:)
Downvoting should be limited, e.g. to 20% of a maximum upvote.
There are flaggers/downvoters like @camillesteemer or @spaminator who downvote without reason and discourage people to create/post content.
Downvote with a slider option.
YES 100%
Yes.
Guys, just had to power up again to get some stuff posted here.
Imagine you're from some country where you make 1$ a day and have to pay to try to interact on this platform, while on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook etc. it is free.
DO SOMETHING ABOUT THESE SORTS OF THINGS FIRST!
There is some positive aspect of this surreal flag/downvote post.
After 2 years being on Steemit, I learned there exists an idea called "communities". Have no clue on wether it is already implemented or in the pipeline to put in action within 3 years or so.
Anyways, found this interesting post of someone who last posted on Steemit six months ago
https://steemit.com/steemit/@wanxlol/a-look-at-the-steemit-communities-feature-aka-subreddits
Alas, I am unable to upvote it in a monetized way, or however you may call it.
Nothing. Just talking to each other
Too late; I'm powering down. As a paying customer I will not put up with the infinite power of a sociopath with a large wallet to wipe out everything that I worked for days to create. Yep, it takes 2 days to make a halfway decent music video and a split second to wipe it. Do what you want, and thanks for a very unpleasant experience on Steemit. Although I didn't come here as an investor, I came looking for an alternative platform and was willing to pay to use it, I am leaving as one. You'll not get another drop of sweat from me, ..ever.
Good bye and good luck.
Who will decide a post should be downvoted? How can you say that no one will use this feature to exploit the system? I remember there was a Decentralized platform called dmunity. The platform was new and used to distribute ERC-20 token for creating content. It had both features downvote and upvote. Most of the articles on dmunity were downvoted without any perfect reasons and none of downvoters ever used to give any clarification for their downvoting activity. However the platform couldn't survive and shut down completely. And What about the users who buy upvotes? If their posts will get downvoted what will happen next? I am not against of downvote provided it should be used properly.
yes
why don't you use dpoll for this? ;)
YES
It would entirely depend on how the changes are implemented.
As of now the flag works. Depending on how downvotes are added, it could change things for the worst.
Yes!
No - Downvote War does not have the same ring to it as Flag War. 😎
I lean for a yes. And I would like to have more warnings before placing that downvotes
@steemitblog
Yes
But I think just downvoting is not enough. Ther should be a flag possibility. I can't see how to implement this in a way that cannot be abused though.
Yes.
And why TF has this taken THREE YEARS?
No. Flagging still seems important with regards to folks that abuse Steemit. If there was a way to check for abuse with the flagging, that would be great. Or maybe you cannot flag until you have a higher rating (say 50), which means you are invested in this community.
yes
having said that it might be worth considering have both the flag and downvote function but have them differ.
leave the flag function as it is and where it is but have it apply to inappropriate content and abuse. The ability of the larger stakeholders to be able to influence rewards of abusers is important in the absence of a centralized authority.
put a downvote button on the right side of the rewards amount display but have it run on an algorithm which will impact the rewards based on the number of downvotes rather than on stake. Sort of after x number of downvotes, the rewards drop by y% type of thing.
I think that something like this would better reflect the community response to the value of the post rather than a single large stakeholder being able to kill it.
Putting the downvote button near but not beside the upvote sends the message they are opposite actions.
Before I answer I'd like to say thank you for asking the community vs just moving forward with what you think is correct.
I'd say Yes call it what it really is which will help new users understand the purpose of the downvote.
As someone that is looking forward to the communities functions I think we need both flags and downvotes to run it more efficiently. To be able to make a flag just something that needs to be reviewed by community leaders or whatever other purpose is assigned is great.
To my way of thinking the question is irrelevant.
The real issue is:
Should a down vote or flag be weighted according to the amount of steem in your account.
imho it most certainly should not.
nor should people who hold multiple accounts (some hold literally hundreds of account) be entitled to flag or down vote the same post from multiple accounts.
Until you sort out these issues this place is fucked as it supports morons like @bearbear613 who likes to murder Palestinian children for throwing stones at fully armed soldiers
Please your propaganda is hilarious. keep defending backwards camel fuckers. I know you like camels too.
Congratulations @steemitblog!
Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following category:
Yes. The flagging system is underused and only used by those abusing it.
That being said, there needs to be a flag/downvote history for an account built in to steemit, just like we have a wallet history. I want to make sure someone I'm upvoting isn't abusing their downvoting power, and currently I have to use a 3rd party tool to see that flagging history.
Yes
While I believe the reluctance to use downvotes is mostly due to economic rather than a UI reasons, I'd support any move to promote their use, however minor, like this one.
Overall, we're currently in a state where voting rewards are being used as staking returns through either bid botting or self voting. This is completely undermining the content discovery ability of this platform and is predominantly due to misaligned economic incentives.
While UI changes are welcome, I believe they'll make very little difference on their own. Having a certain amount of free downvotes (like 25% of upvotes) and bringing up curation rewards will likely remedy a lot of the economic problems and allow people to use their votes to actually reward content they find appealing. A tiny amount of superlinear can also help force all potentially profitable voting behavior into the light and prevent profitable micro spamming.
Long live the n2!
n^2 is far too extreme and opens the system to abuse in other ways
but I believe a slight amount of superlinear would be better than linear
every measure has trade offs, the idea is to use a combination of very modest measures that compliment each other that represent the least set of trade offs required to obtain a working economy
I sure liked the n2 when the whale experiment kicked in, before that it sucked.
I still think a 500mv community enforced soft cap on the n2 brings in the masses.
30 or 40 people making worthwhile money won't cut it.
We got to spread the coin farther.
Abusing us with the ninjamine is real classy, imo.
i agree the post experiment econ was the best, although it wasn't ideal either, as this level of superlinear heavily rewarded collusive vote stacking on certain posts
it was also expensive for abit and smooth running the experiment
i believe with something like n^1.2 or 1.3 up until a certain point, and then linear from there, we could enjoy pretty much all the advantages of n^2 with very little of the disadvantages
in addition, i think a non trivial amount of free downvotes is a must (although 100% is far too much, i think 25% of upvotes is more than sufficient)
increasing curation will further close the gap between voting for legitimately good posts from others and just directly shoving the vote rewards back into your own pocket (which would be much harder with slight superlinear and some free downvotes)
@steemflagrewards has a bot that automates downvotes, if that was modified to include everybody with 1mv or more to enforce the softcap then it wouldn't have to fall totally on the whales.
Bringing back the 4 post soft cap on rewards would cut abuse some.
So would doubling votes to 20.
What do you think of giving curation to downvotes?
Just mirror upvotes.
All good ideas, know any coders?
the experiment partially worked only because the economy was at its infancy and people weren't bothered/sophisticated in trying to get around it
these days, with delegation and whatnot, it's trivially easy to split your stake under multiple accounts and circumvent the measures you suggested
i haven't seen a better set of ideas than higher curation, moderate free downvotes and slight superlinear. I can't think of any obvious ways it can be abused. It does mean we have to accept some of the negatives that come with it like less author rewards (which is a big deal assuming now the econ works and authors aren't just the stakeholders but good content creators), higher toxicity through more downvotes, and somewhat inequality through superlinear.
the idea is to minimize their negative effects while still having enough of these measures to get a working economy.
I was wondering about ganging up sock puppets of whales.
Would that end run a 500mv soft cap?
Do 10 500mv accounts pull enough rewards to make the math unattractive to the minnows?
Is there enough stake with the will to block that?
No doubt that a 4 post soft cap on rewards and a 1% vote rather than 2% would alter abuse dramatically.
Combine the superlinear up to 500mv and we are where we were 2 plus years ago.
How does a large investor feel about splitting stake due to the cap?
How many people buy 250,000 steem at a whack?
I know that is a lot of questions, i hope you can answer them so that i can quit asking folks.
I do know that the top 10 voters take ~27% of the pool each day.
The bidbots take another 30.
Not much left over for anybody outside the top 500 accounts.
Is it any wonder we are having a hard time interesting folks in investing their time just to be excluded from tasting the pie?
https://steemit.com/steemit/@statsmonkey/biggest-upvoters-3132018---part-ii
There must be NO flags or downvotes. If you want to live in peace you need no spears. If you give people spears - they will poke each other "in a name of greater good". And than a flag war begins.
For what?
If you don't like something - just ignore it. If no one can hurt you, you need no means to hurt others yourself.
Flags must be abandoned. You can do so much more if there is no violence in system is possible by design.
This flag/downvote fake discussion post is extremely insulting towards the normal non-geek Steemit users.
Most of us here know who is responsable for the collapse of Steemit.
It is not the small fish who put effort in creating posts, often to see their reputation going downwards and being robbed by rogue witnesses.
It is the flag and downvote abusers that have made Steem tumbling down to 6360 Satoshi this week.
These apex-predators or top-abusers are among the top witnesses.
And it is time to take action NOW if we want Steemit to continue living.
Among the top 5 steemit abusers are:
@themarkymark (badcontent)
@berniesanders / @nextgencrypto + some 100-300 other accounts
@anyx (cheetah, steamcleaners etc)
These mega abusers, harrassers, stalkers that have chased many people away from the platform and stolen many earnings from authors should immediately and forever be banned from being witness.
There will of course be other abusers, but as far as I know these are the topdogs among them.
We have to get rid of them is Steemit is to survive.
There are without doubt very big interests involved in keeping Steemit as small as possible, as we see the same happening with Facebook, Twitter, YouTube where unwanted voices are being silenced.
That's why I think it is safe to assume that at least one of these top abusers is in cahoots with those that are pressuring the other social media platforms to silence critical voices, by banning, shadow banning and other techniques.
This platform has an exceptionally strong potential, but yet it gets dwarfed by anything else on the market.
There is no excuse why Steemit is nowhere to be seen in this list.
We all know who are responsible for this shameful situation and they should pay for that.
Yes
Cuidado, este usuario es reconocido como un engreido abusador de la autoridad delegada, se comporta como un guardia nacional, es un hipocrita y es mansito cuando anda mendigando, pero se enardece facilmente en lo que agarra un poquito de poder.
Digno representante del Hombre nuevo del Chavismo emergente
Yes
But I think there are some more important thing to implement/fix first.
Some weeks ago, I heard something about SMTs, I hope you remember too. Would be nice to see some updates and informations there.
I like calling it a downvote. As downvote signifies a person disliking a post while a flag makes it feel like someone is reporting a post
Posted using Partiko iOS
No, but . . .
We need a way to differentiate between bad actors and substandard content. Spam, plagiarism, fraud, and other abuses need to be signalled to the community.
@mattockfs's comment is spot-on. Bidbots are doing a lot of harm to the reward pool and artificially inflating the reputations of their users. Perhaps voting needs two tiers. Reward only +/-, and reward and reputation +/-. In the mean time, we need to keep the flag as an indication of dishonest users.
How About Upvotes & Downvotes,then Replace Flags with Report? Report for inappropriate content that can be manually moderated by your team & taken down if need be? Either way, if Downvotes will still affect Reputation then there's no use, just same old shit just a different name. Flagging accounts to oblivion is in a way censorship cause it hides away the affected Account's content, Which is not fair, Which would make Steemite no better than mainstream media in that regard. Maybe downvotes should ONLY affect the rewards and not the Reputation.
Report: that really makes good sense. Downvoting is stealing. The poster has made an effort to create a post and when someone like a big whale dislikes hit, he can rob all the rewards, even if the poster has had hundreds of small rewards from small fish. There should come a voting power cap, like 1000 SP max. then there would no longer be whales and no need for greed.
yes
Yes
yes
Yes
Here come the downvote bots! :(
YES
https://steemit.com/steem/@themarkymark/what-flags-really-are
yes
YES
Yes.
It took more than two years but it's about time users could redistribute rewards from an overvalued post without miscommunicating an attack on the author.
Yes.
It's the right step forward to introducing downvotes as an accepted tool to be used by any Steem member. People need to learn to accept downvotes as a natural thing that will happen to anyone as nothing can be liked by everyone. I hope this will eventually put "flag wars" to the end.
I'd also consider introducing a separate, smaller, pool for downvotes so people/curators can actively use downvotes without feeling that they're losing on individual level. We have to start thinking what's best on community level.
Why even ask when you had the intentions of doing it anyway. Like the peoples opinion, the users, that their opinion really really matters. I mean if you are going to ask on such a trivial change and then do what you want and not even pretend to wait for the people to have a say, why bother asking the people/users for any opinion at all when you are going to do what ever the hell you feel like anyway. Why pretend that peoples opinion matters.
YES
Downvotes are an integral part of this platform's economic model, just as much as upvotes are, they are equally important and useful and should be represented as such. I was delighted when I discovered this change just now.
I hope this will help with some awareness and legitimization of downvoting as a measure to curate the platform.
Also, I think quite some newbies stumble upon the flag thinking it means something completely different, like bookmarking. The relationship of flags and votes, being essentially the same, remains obscure to many users of the platform.
I hope this becomes a permanent change!
Great choice! The new Upvote/Downvote is very cool!
It would be good to have both options available. Perhaps the perfect system design needs them both eventually anyway? I imagine you'd need to be able to differentiate between harmful-extreme negative content and simple-overvalued "boo" posts.
Yes, I always thought that the "flag" was for reporting offending content!!
No.
You simply renamed the problem - there are a ton of accounts simply downvoting / flaggin every post (some even automatically); those people don't provide any posts themselvs nor do they upvote... What do you do about them?
Accounts in poor standing should not have a downvote ability (negative rep) and downvote weight should be at 100% for accounts of rep 25 and over. for accounts lower than 25 rep the downvote power should exponentially be sacrifices for every 1 rep point lost (until zero)
Can we have an update on SMTs please??
Yes