Butch and Sundance: An Afterword Of Their Story. Part 1
Howdy folks and greetings from the Great Plains of North Texas!
I promised some of my readers that I'd give an update on the Butch and Sundance story if I found more information regarding their demise.
Well, as I was finishing my series of posts on these guys I found out that the main researcher I'd been using, the amazing Anne Meadows, had written an addition to the latest printing of her book, Digging Up Butch and Sundance.
Here's the boys in their city duds around 1898. Sundance on the left, Butch on the right:
She calls it an "Afterword" so that's what I'm calling the information. I'm not an author and didn't recognize the term even, but it sounds logical.
There are no bombshells in it however, and I apologize to readers who happen upon this post because it may be rather boring for you unless you've followed the series or are interested in Butch and Sundance.
More circumstantial evidence
Anne and her researchers found two newspaper articles from 1908, the year Butch and Sundance allegedly died. One of them was an article about the shootout and had reprinted a copy of the map they had with them.
On it they had drawn their route, in ink, with the towns they had worked and lived in, including those years at the Concordia Mine.
This is current day San Vicente, Bolivia where the shootout took place:
All the towns circled on the map were places that researchers have proven that the real Butch and Sundance had been. So if that was another pair of Americans, why would they have such a map?
A chance encounter
The other newspaper article talked about a missionary who had known Butch while he was working at the Concordia mine. Well, the missionary just happened to run into him at the hotel across the street from the mine payroll office which Butch was watching and of course was staying at that hotel.
When the missionary called out to him by the name he had used at the mine Butch bristled and corrected him about his name. Because of course he was using another alias at the time.
This was another positive identifier of the real Butch right there in Tupiza when he was watching the payroll office.
Another minor detail
There was another small but maybe important detail regarding the personal belongings left behind by the outlaws. On Sundance's(allegedly) body were several handkerchiefs and in his luggage there were even more. Why would anyone carry so many?
Well, Sundance was known for having some kind of issue or condition with his sinuses and possibly sinus infections. That could be another proof right there to add to the circumstantial evidence.
The sightings in the United States
Almost all the sightings have been debunked and proven to be William T. Spencer who was Butch's cell mate in Wyoming State Penitentiary.
Anne Meadows discovered a letter written by Butch's brother, Dan, where he talked about believing that Butch died in Bolivia and that no one in his family believed otherwise except his sister Lula.
Lula had never met Butch because she was a baby when he left home but when he supposedly showed up again in 1925 or 30, after 41 years, she believed it was him. It was actually William T. Spencer but she resisted the facts and none of her family could convince her otherwise.
She was known to have a saying.."We Parkers love a good story!" She wrote a book about Butch and hoped to get rich off of it but that didn't happen.
I think by the end of her life she knew it wasn't the real Butch but didn't want to admit it and I think that saying of her's speaks volumes without admission!
Etta Place
After over a hundred years of searching for her no one really has come up with proof of the enigmatic lady. Who she was, if she made it out of South America, what became of her if she got here. No new evidence has turned up as far as I can tell and I doubt if anyone is still looking.
Etta Place with Sundance in New York City, 1900:
Most historians think she showed up in San Francisco at the Bolivian Consulate in 1906 to ask about Sundance's paperwork. But I think that sighting was just based on someone thinking the woman looked like Etta. So who knows if it really was?
I hope she did make it back here and lived a great life.
This is getting too long, part 2 when I get it done and we'll talk about DNA indentification and some odds and ends that I found.
Thanks for reading folks, God bless you all!
-jonboy
Texas
the gentleman redneck
PS- ya know...you might just be a redneck if:
You consider new hub-caps to be a home improvement!
I'm betting she made off with a ton of money going back and recouping stashes across the map, concealing who she was.
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haha! howdy sir enginewitty! I hope you're right and you may be!
Since she only used aliases, including Etta, no one had names to look up.
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Howdy esteemapp! thank you so much for the upvote and the fine platform and for helping so many of us!
You write better than the history books kids have to read today.
Of course a few hub caps here and there would make an improvement. You have truly found you niche.
Peace
haha! Howdy sir mineopoly! thank you for the kind words. I concede that I am some form of writer but I don't consider myself and author because none of my stuff is original, it's just talking about history. But I do like the niche that I've found here! How's the teaching profession going over there? Rewarding even if the pay isn't what it should be?
Exactly. I'm trying to have fun and stay healthy. If I have a minute I will post something I made. Teaching is like exercise for me. It makes me feel good after I do it.
Howdy sir mineopoly! that's an interesting comparison. With exercise many times it doesn't feel good until it's over with, is that the way with teaching for you, not the process during the day?
^^
Some more interesting details, I never pictured Sundance with a sinus problem and so many Hankerchiefs LOL
haha! yeah that isn't a very romantic image is it? lol. sorry everyone! lol.
I prefer truthful information over romantic variants
yes, I do too but I think we're rare in today's society! lol.
Yes, I do too but
I think we're rare in today's
Society! lol.
- janton
I'm a bot. I detect haiku.
But she didn't say anything about the bullet-hole ridden swiss-cheese house? Awww!
Oh, and speaking of hubcaps... I once made a custom set for a friend who had bought a used car. They were hot pink, with glitter and a silver paw print in the middle, all covered in a nice, durable clear coat. Not home improvement in her case, but her then husband ended up driving the thing more than her and got some spectacular comments!
haha! what the? Those hub caps wow! lol. Great job on those. I don't know if I'd take those off or not. That's hilarious though!
the swiss cheese house...ya know.. the book that I just got is great but it's not in chronological order so I tried to look up that account but only found one man's written testimony about it, I haven't found her talking about it yet so I guess I'm too late if I find something.
I was also trying to find out how long it was before police in the city found out about it, because those people in San Vicente had no idea who they had on their hands. One part that I read said it was 2 years before the people in the city were notified about what had happened.
Of course Sundance's gold watch went missing or else they could have identified it as being the one bought at Tiffanys in New York. that would be pretty conclusive.
I bet that watch would be worth millions, today. If you could prove it was his, that thing would fetch an absurd price at auction. I bet it's still around, somewhere. Probably in some trunk in Bolivia. That would be kind of fun to try and track down, too, if you had a travel budget :-)
Actually, the family of someone wounded or shot in the fight would probably be a really good place to start.
Howdy sir fotosdenada! I agree totally, it would be insane, the value of that watch. Anne Meadows probably already searched for it, they spent over ten years there doing exhaustive research.
Is it esteem that told you it’s too long, Janton? That’s the one that counts your characters, right?
Danget! I did really well with this series and missed probably the last two weeks. Which, for you, is 14 articles cuz you never miss a beat. I’ll have to go back and see how they died.
Great job per the usual, Janton. Thank you for entertaining us.
Howdy tonight sir dandays! Thank you for the kind words. I think it's fascinating and Busy and Esteem both keep a character count but they aren't the ones who told me what was too long. I asked a couple of actual authors on here. Real, published authors and they told me what the research said.
At 800 words people start tuning out or skimming. But I've found on steemit it's more like 500 words so I've shortened mine. Actually many experienced people on here think that NO ONE actually reads posts but that's not true because I do. Maybe just 5 or 10% do. My guess is that 10 to 20% read them if they're kept short like 500 words or less.
With mine, even if it's short, people are constantly asking me questions whose answers were clearly spelled out in the text so I know they didn't read it! lol.
It’s just you. The researchers were researching you and you bit! You see, the rest of us read the entire article, you’re the only one skimming at 500 words. 👍🏿
haha! howdy sir dandays! That's a great gif. lol. Hey I wish I was wrong but unfortunately my record of always being right stands. lol.
There ARE exceptions. A couple of people on here are speed readers so they don't have to skim. They take in an entire page at a time and remember it too. We have some awesome people here.
Incidently one of those people asks detailed questions about my post and the material so I know he reads it. Even though it probably takes him less than 60 seconds to read the entire thing.
Nice to heard more details of Sundance and Butch. That bunch of dirty handkerchiefs sort of take the glamour away from Sundance..you didn’t mention they were dirty but some much have been. 😂
I do believe Etta met her maker being shot after the robbery and I would have liked to see her living the high life back in the States.
I’m looking forward to the DNA story.
Howdy redheadpei! haha! yeah that is not the Hollywood version of Sundance that's the real version. lol. Sorry.
I truly hope that Etta made it back and most historians think she did but there is no proof of that, at least not yet.
Call me a hopeless romantic but I don't think her and Sundance would have seperated. And if they did I don't think he could have not been writing her like crazy or resisted taking off and going to see her. Instead, none of that happened and neither of them ever spoke of her again?
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Howdy there ocdb! Thank you so much for the upvote and for doing all you do for people!
More details to wrap up the Butch and Sundance tale! I wonder if they had any idea that their story would still be being talked about far into the future!
I think they did because they were afraid they were too famous to stay in the United States so I imagine they did. How has your evening been? Was that book end like you wanted it to or was it like Butch and Sundance?
Interesting added info. I always wondered what happened to Etta. But since there are no answers we are left to use our imagination. Looking forward to part 2. : )
well! howdy tonight Butterfly! how's it going? did the snow stop? that's the main question.
Howdy @janton! Yes, the snow finally stopped and this past weekend was our first dry weekend in months. The sun even came out and melted all of the snow except for some piles in large parking lots. But, we have a mixture of snow and rain headed our way early Monday morning. (tomorrow.) They say it won't amount to much thank goodness. I am just happy that the temps have been above freezing. : )
Howdy again Butterfly! yay! that means no more snow shoveling! I'm excited for you because that means spring is on the way. I started mowing today. Could have started last week but it rained.
Hopefully no more shoveling. What a dream come true! Spring is definitely on the way. I saw my first robin today and that sure did make me happy.
You mowed? Good for you! I am so jealous! : )
haha! that's the first time I've ever made anyone jealous by mowing! lol. Well, I never made anyone jealous about anything really. lol. But yes it's been a typical Texas March, sunny every day, got warm enough to just wear a sleaveless t shirt today.
HaHa! I am so jealous of your warm sunny weather too!
It's beautiful. Just gorgeous every day. I also picked up more ammo for my snake gun and hope I don't have to use it!
I also hope you don't have to use it. I hate snakes. I know that hate is a strong word and I don't use it lightly but the 3 things I hate are spiders, snakes and fleas.
haha! howdy again Butterfly! The three things I hate are snakes, ticks and mesquitos. I see no reason to have any of em. especially ticks and mesquitos, what is their purpose?
Exactly. They have no purpose except to make animals and people sick. I forgot about ticks and I don't know how I forgot about them because I have Lyme disease but it has been in remission for 3 years now. And thankfully my cat doesn't get any. Mosquitoes don't bite me and I am very happy about that.
Howdy back Butterfly! oh, lyme disease..well did that just start going into remission on it's own?
After months of treatments, yes it did. They say that once you have it, you always will and it can flare up again at any time. Thank God that has only happened once.
Howdy back again Butterfly! wow..what did they treat it with and what were the symptoms?
There is a special antibiotic to treat it and the treatment lasted for 45 days.
The symptoms were fever, severe joint pain (added to my already Fibromyalgia muscle and joint pain.) I was bedridden for 10 days. I couldn't walk at all. The swelling from the tick bite was so swollen and looked like a bullseye target. But I was lucky because I felt the bite, extremely painful and I kept the tick. Went to the ER, they tested the tick and told me that is was so full of that disease and they were able to treat me really fast. Some people don't even know they got bit until the symptoms were so severe which delayed their treatment.
holy moly! Wow, well as bad as it was it might have been life threatening if you didn't have that tick with you. Actually I've never heard of anyone knowing when they got bit by one, usually they have no idea and the symptoms get worse and worse and they doctors can't find the problem because they're misdiagnosing them.
But having said that, I've never heard of such bad reaction and symptoms either! You just can't be normal can you Butterfly? You just have to be different! lol.
LOL! There you go again with that "normal" word. LOL!
Time for me to get to bed. It was nice talking with you jonboy! Sweet dreams! : )
ok I agree! but don't wait 2 weeks to come back!
Hi Janton, so what is your take on it? What do think is the truth? I'd be interested to know your thoughts on it
Howdy sir towjam! Oh that was them that died there in Bolivia, the evidence is overwhelming.
They weren't real careful with writing letters to relatives and friends back in the States and
suddenly that stopped after the shootout. The Pinkertons had the post office situation in hand
and intercepted all their mail.
As far as Etta, I don't know. My thoughts on her is that she was the one who was wounded in
that big bank robbery. I don't know if you read that post though. But one of their big bank jobs
resulted in one of them being shot by the posse.
After that she was never seen again and never mentioned again. I think Sundance and her were
so much in love that they wouldn't have separated. And if they DID, he wouldn't have been able to
stop from writing all the time or from taking off to go visit her. I think that's why he was so depressed
and started drinking heavily.
So I think that's why she vanished without a trace.
Based on what I know about human nature and people I think if she DID make it back to the
U.S. she eventually would have talked about her famous life at some point. She would have told
someone and people can't keep secrets for nothing. lol. Someone would have told about it, if for
no other reason but to get some fame out of it.
Well you are the professional on these matters. I do agree with you that people can't keep something big in their lives quiet for long. It will be passed onto someone in their lives if for nothing else than someone going woah!
haha! howdy sir towjam! I totally agree. Thanks so much for reading and commenting!
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haha! howdy blacklux! That mustache looks familiar but I can't quite place it but you know that a mustache that big has to belong to a real hero! lol.
interesting! it is strange that this woman actually left no traces. but maybe still ahead and time will tell!
howdy again tali72! Exactly, someday we may find photos or other evidence about her, IF she made it back. Historians are divided on that fact. There is also another remote possibility. She was in San Francisco in 1906, that year they had a major earthquake which killed thousands of people. IF she was there she could have been swallowed up or killed in that!
Maybe that's why no one ever saw her again. Not likely but possible.
You're doing good with ole butch and sundance...
Howdy sir wales! thanks for the kind words!